I read that non-compliance is a lot more than just pixelation - no display or very bad and mangled display.

This is true. Many HDMI devices are not HDCP compliant. Of course, manufacturers rarely tell you what their products *don't* do. Commonly, you will get intermittent pixellation and outright refusal to play/display.

For audio, you may not get hi-res tracks, or they will be degraded in bitrate/format. Often people don't even know this with audio because *the source* is HDCP-compliant, so the user thinks everything's OK, but the downstream devices aren't compliant so they degrade the audio. With video it's easier for most people to tell when the downstream device isn't compliant. A non-compliant display can cause degradation of upstream compliant audio source.

It is a can of worms. If the manufacturer doesn't explicitly state something, then assume it doesn't have/do it. Geez, you're lucky when devices even do all the stuff they *do* say...

Finally, many off-brand devices have zero licensing at all. That certainly means no HDCP. And that their (unlicensed) HDMI ability would likely be questionable at best for working with much licensed gear.

 

Every now and then, I'll switch from DVI to HDMI and I'll get, for a mere second, a screen stating the my monitor isn't compliant. Then, I see the image.

Should I then assume that the monitor is compliant and that what I see is the best it can be?

 

What you're seeing is likely macroblocking. Search for that term and you'll find lots of previous references regarding fast motion, etc. If a device is non-compliant, you usually get an on-screen notice and there will be no picture at all.

Many HDMI devices are not HDCP compliant

Actually, by definition any HDMI device must be HDCP compliant - it's part of the HDMI spec, however, that doesn't mean that you can't have issues, as discussed in the following HDMI FAQ.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=71112


Please see the following post, useful for those new to the forum - FAQs, Search Tips, Optimization, etc:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=57741

 

I think HDCP handles whether or not a signal is allowed to be output to a certain display device from a copyright perspective i.e. you will either see a picture or none at all. I don't think it has anything to do with the video quality of the image itself; that would have more to do with the source, quality of the TV/monitor itself, and of course the calibration.

 

57: Nope, I was talking about some devices with HDMI connectors. As mentioned, they are probably not *licensed* HDMI devices. Tons of them around. Especially in the TO area, you know where to get them! To put it simply, a device with HDMI connectors, and a supposed HDMI interface, is not necessarily compliant with HDMI specs, any of them. Caveat emptor.

Also, HDMI devices that are NOT HDCP compliant can cause the video effects I mentioned. I don't know why, it just is, seen it with HDMI devices from a company beloved of many here (I like them for some cheap cables *only*). I was referring to it in the thread just below, but didn't want to get into it too much...but as usual I can't leave well enough alone... What you may see or hear depends on how the *compliant* source manufacturer decided to handle the detection of a non-compliant device...it varies. Some do not completely cut you off, just make it nasty or annoying (sort of like Microsoft does).

 

cfraser, I believe you're mixing up the fact that some devices or cables may not meet certain specifications (passing a signal well for example), with HDCP, which has to do with copy protection issues. An HDMI cable simply cannot be HDCP compliant or non-compliant for example - it's simply passing (or not passing) a signal, but it may not meet certain minimum HDMI specs, therefor causing the issues you mention. A totally different matter from HDCP. Lack of HDCP will give you a message, or absolutely no signal - there is no "in-between" for HDCP.

 

^ Nope, not talking about cables at all. I am definitely talking about non-HDCP compliant stuff. There is tons of it out there. It does work part-ways, sometimes. Monoprice (for example) sells some (mostly all??) non-HDCP-compliant splitters etc. May work with your compliant device, may not, may part-way with noted artifacts and degrading of output. Don't forget: these devices are not licensed, so how they react is unpredictable.

And many devices with HDMI connectors do not necessarily even meet any HDMI specs. It's only a connector after all. You know where they come from...maybe it works just fine there for most people...

Now, I mostly deal with "more expensive" stuff in my work. It is usually fully compliant and intended to work at a high performance level. This type of stuff can be most particular with non-HDCP-compliant gear, and is more likely to be go/no-go.

 

57, in the FAQ that you pointed out, I found this little gem:

2. Be aware that HDMI should not be considered a superior connection to component video in terms of picture quality. Properly calibrated inputs on a TV will usually look the same when using HDMI or CV.

My Dell 2408 WFP also has component inputs. I connected my 4250HD to it and got the same PQ as HDMI and DVI... so it just might as well be the PQ of the monitor I'm seeing there. Hrm...

I wonder if it's normal PQ for HD content though. I wonder how other 2408WFP owners out there fair with this issue?

 

cfraser,

from your examples listed, you seemed to have misunderstood what HDCP compliant was all about. You gave examples of sub-standard HDMI devices that probably did not meet certain HDMI specifications. Heck, I don't think you can claim a splitter to meet any HDMI specification.

HDCP is all or none from what I understand. It is for deterring digital copying. I have an Asus 8500GT video card that is NOT HDCP-compliant (it is hard to believe, but there is such garbage exist). What it does not do is play Blu-ray or HD-DVD using software players via DVI. It plays ripped folders perfectly fine. It plays via VGA fine. Running a software like AnyDVDHD and all of a sudden, it can play via DVI/HDMI fine. This is the simplest example that you can do something about. Cable boxes, forget it, you're laughing if you can get it to work again by turning it off and back on again.

 

Come on guys, please stop telling me I don't know what HDCP compliance is. Of course I know. I also understand the difference between an HDMI-type connector, and a licensed and standardised HDMI interface that includes the connector.

People import things from parts of the world where virtually nothing is licensed. Everything may work fine together there, it's when it comes here and has to work with our licensed/"standard" stuff that there can be problems.

The point is that not everythng with an HDMI interface is implemented the same, and many not even properly. I think we all know that, and most have probably encountered it.

Now, the problems that I've seen with HDMI stuff that isn't HDCP-compliant *may* not have been because it wasn't compliant. As I said I don't know for sure, how could I tell for sure in my position, but it *could* be. There are half-assed implementations, just as with HDMI. The HDMI and HDCP are tightly coupled of course, like HDCP was the reason behind HDMI.

What I do know is when I've seen things like the OP saw, there was often a non-HDCP-compliant device involved. I don't have time to fool with stuff like that, it's beneficial to me to install stuff that works "perfectly" otherwise I look incompetent. So HDCP compliance is just one more thing I check before I purchase something. Yes it can cost more. For myself I can be a little cheaper because I know the risks, and know what the problem *might* be if something goes awry. And yes I have a box of junk, but sometimes something that was flakey in one app works just fine in another so I don't throw the stuff out.

And I'm not mistaking HDMI interface implementation incompatibility with HDCP non-compliance. For instance, the compliant popular Denon 3808 AVR does not like the popular and compliant Sony LCD displays, in general. Tons of other examples of HDCP-compliant devices fighting. You would expect every name-brand HDMI device sold here to be HDCP-compliant. It's the thousands of stores (probably that many in the TO area alone) selling non-name-brand stuff of dubious providence that proliferate the problems. Anyway, I stick to name brands intended to sell in NA but even that doesn't guarantee seamless interfacing. If it did I'd have nothing to do...

 

I have an Asus 8500GT video card that is NOT HDCP-compliant (it is hard to believe, but there is such garbage exist).

That card is not garbage just because it doesn't support HDCP. At the time it was made, no video cards supported HDCP and many consumer devices such as TVs did not either (or they did it incorrectly.) 5 years ago, HDCP did not exist and 10 years ago HDMI did not exists, except on prototypes.

There seems to be some confusion over HDMI and HDCP. HDMI is a digital communication standard. HDCP is an encryption standard. HDMI exists quite legitimately without HDCP but does not on most consumer devices due to encryption required by content providers and the DMCA in the US. While HDMI splitters are perfectly legitimate, splitting HDMI signals with HDCP protection is not, due to the one-to-one encryption protocol HDCP enforces. As for poor quality digital signals, they are a fact of life. Perfect digital signals would require processing and transmission bandwidths that are not available on today's equipment, especially not consumer grade equipment.

 

Believe it or not, there is a term for those mishaps and I believe it's called HDMI 'handshake' issue. They probably represent poor execution of HDCP for both the feeding and receiving devices. I remember the old days, the DVI/HDMI ports often lost connectivity after S3 sleep. PS3 connection, you name it. The funny thing is, these screw up may have nothing to do with watching a Blu-ray disc.

@Scary-
I was just bashing the name in general. I knew what HDCP was at the time of purchase but actually could not believe it in fact was not when I got the LG BD/HDDVD ROM player 1-2 years later. I just assumed.

OTOH, my kitchen 27" Viewsonic LCD TV...very, very old, no ATSC tuner...I'd admit I did know what HDCP was at the time of purchase. Guess what, it takes BD players and HDDVD players fine LOL.

Being a 3-4 yr old card, the 8500GT is still fairly capable in all media (much like a 8400GS). As mentioned, it only fails with BD and HDDVD. Windows will detect no HDCP as well.

 

I have an 8500GTS and it is still a very good card but not HDCP capable (and neither is my monitor.) I believe HDCP was introduced with the 9000 series cards. The HTPC has an HDCP over HDMI compliant card though.

 

I believe 7600GT was the era when HDCP compliant was first talked about.

Scary,

Did you mean 8600GTS ? Did you get it way back or recently on fire sale ??

Also, what make is yours ?

 

I have a evga 8600GTS card and it says on the box, HDCP Capable, and it is in fact HDCP compliant. Some cards, depending on the manufacturer, from the 8000 series were compliant and some weren't, same as some computer monitors, so at the time you had to be aware of what you were buying.

Also I remember reading that a picture could be downgraded if it is not HDCP compliant. This could be what is happening to the opening poster, although I thought newer Dell monitors should be HDCP compliant.

When there’s a failure in the authentication process with HDMI or DVI connections, you get either a blank screen on your HDTV, downgraded video resolution to 480i or 480P (which is DVD resolution), no sound, 2 channel audio, or CD quality audio at best!