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See, this is your problem. You refuse to learn facts about the outside world and wonder why people on the outside world think differently?
Seeing you like analogies (slanted, but nevertheless), let me try this. The Internet browser is the glass. The Internet content displayed in it is the wine. While I see a lot of people seeing value in upgrading the glass for whatever reasons, some other people just can't figure out such reasons, since it would cost you time and effort, and the best you can hope to get as a reward is the same result.
Well, if you have a grudge with the glass maker, everything makes perfect sense. :)
 

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HTML5 and H.264 are standards that can be used by anyone. The purpose of these standards is, in part, to reduce the use of proprietary protocols that are owned by individual companies. While a company may own the implementation of the standard, such as a hardware chip or software program, no one commercial entity owns the standard.

This brings us back to the Apple vs MS debate. Despite having closed systems, Apple has a long history of using standards when they exist. QuickTime is probably the most notable exception. Microsoft has a long history of ignoring standards and of trying to force their own proprietary solutions on the industry and end users, particularly Windows users. Examples are WMA, WMV, non-standard HTML extensions, non-standard Java implementations and Java-like scripting languages, proprietary document formats and even products using proprietary music formats that they sold to consumers and then abandoned, leaving them stranded. That's just off the top of my head so there are quite likely many more examples. MS also has a history of keeping it's proprietary formats secret and using them in ways to stifle competition in an attempt to gain or maintain a monopolistic market share.

Microsoft's practices have also caused disruption and confusion in the marketplace (to their own advantage) as well. For example, there are many examples of web sites that didn't or don't work with non-MS browsers due to incompatible Microsoft web servers or extensions. Microsoft also gave their own software products and software developers an advantage by keeping proprietary software interfaces secret.
 

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Here is a list of companies that have patents in the H.264 standard -

Apple Inc.
DAEWOO Electronics Corporation
Dolby Laboratories Licensing Corporation
Electronics and Telecommunications Research Institute
France Télécom, société anonyme*
Fraunhofer-Gesellschaft zur Foerderung der angewandten Forschung e.V.
Fujitsu Limited
Hitachi, Ltd.
Koninklijke Philips Electronics N.V.
LG Electronics Inc.
Microsoft Corporation
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation
NTT DOCOMO, INC.
Nippon Telegraph and Telephone Corporation
Panasonic Corporation
Robert Bosch GmbH*
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Scientific-Atlanta Vancouver Company
Sedna Patent Services, LLC
Sharp Corporation
Siemens AG
Sony Corporation
Telefonaktiebolaget LM Ericsson

These patents are pooled together and administered by MPEG LA, LLC. a privately held company.

A list of the actual patent numbers in this pool can be found here -

http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/avc/Documents/avc-att1.pdf
 

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The really scary part this is FAT patents.

MS also has a history of keeping it's proprietary formats secret and using them in ways to stifle competition in an attempt to gain or maintain a monopolistic market share.
The judicial system in Germany has recently been co-opted into upholding the FAT patents. Consider the implications of this. Your camera or whatever usb storage medium might just become not usable if Microsoft forces the Linux kernel fat stack out of the kernel by demanding royalties as they threatened to do a few years back.

Show me a consumer device that does not have fat storage (with the fortunate exception of Motorola and other stbs ).. My BlueRay Linux based LG dvd deck does... SO do many other Linux based consumer devices.. Heck even Android cell phones do, but at least Android if it loses fat capability can still read and write ext4...which is essentially meaningless to the average cell phone user. So essentially Microsoft can have Google and many manufactures that use fat storage under the Linux kernel by the shorts if it chooses to sue for royalties from the fat stack.

If this is not coercion through monopolistic practices then I do not know how to define illegal business practices!
 

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Seeing you like analogies (slanted, but nevertheless), let me try this. The Internet browser is the glass. The Internet content displayed in it is the wine. While I see a lot of people seeing value in upgrading the glass for whatever reasons, some other people just can't figure out such reasons, since it would cost you time and effort, and the best you can hope to get as a reward is the same result.
Base on your as-long-as-A-works-why-bother-to-know-anything-about-B attitude, how do you know my analogies about A-vs-B are slanted than your wine glass analogy? And more importantly how do you know your wine glass is not actually a leaky paper cup that you can still drink your fine wine in?
 

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If Apple ever come up with something that is cost effective and open to all developers, whether they choose to make their products cross platform or not, and free of Steve Job's absolute and total control, I might actually try it.
I love it when I read stuff like this. You do realize that comparing the 'cost effectiveness' and 'openness' of Apple to Microsoft is a losing proposition for Microsoft don't you?

  • Every Mac OS X system ships with media management system (iTunes), image management system (iPhoto), video editor (iMovie), DVD authoring software (iDVD), web site authoring (iWeb), music authoring (GarageBand), rich text editor (TextEdit), back-up system (Time Machine), graphing calculator (Grapher), built-in ZIP compressor/decompressor, disk management tools including the ability to burn CD and DVD media and create virtual disk images (Disk Utility), New Oxford American Dictionary and Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus (Dictionary)
  • Every Mac OS X system ships with a built-in spelling and grammar checking system
  • Every Mac OS X system ships with support for Microsoft Exchange. No need for an MS Office licence
  • Every Mac OS X system ships with the Adobe Flash player pre-installed
  • Every Mac OS X system ships with the ability to read and write the PDF file format (print to PDF/Preview)
  • Every Mac OS X system ships with the Java pre-installed
  • Every Mac OS X system ships with the ability to network with Windows based systems
  • Every Mac OS X system ships with the ability to share network based resources with Windows based systems
  • Every Mac OS X system ships with BootCamp, everything necessary to run a Windows environment on Mac hardware including all the necessary hardware drivers for Windows to access Mac hardware.
  • Every Mac OS X system ships with the ability to read and write to Windows formatted disks
  • Every Mac OS system ships with the complete Xcode development environment with support for Objective-C, C, C++ and Java programming languages. Anyone can develop and distribute applications for Mac OS X. Anyone can sign up for a free Mac OS developer account and gain access to developer documentation and developer tool updates.
  • Anyone can access and download the open source core of Mac OS X, Darwin, the base of the Mac OS as well as many parts of the developer tools and iPhone OS.
  • Apple is a major initiator of and contributor to many open source projects. I'll let you do the research, there are just too many to list here.
  • Mac OS X also supports many open standards right out of the box but again there are too many to list here. You can do the research if you're really interested.
In addition, because of the Mac OS's certified Unix underpinnings and POSIX compliance, many free and open source projects easily compile on Mac OS X using Apple's built-in developer tools.

Apple also distributes free of charge, iTunes for Windows, QuickTime for Windows, Bonjour (ZeroConf) networking for Windows, Safari for Windows, Apple Software Update for Windows, AirPort Utility for Windows, MobileMe Control Panel for Windows.

Now if you can demonstrate to us how Microsoft is more 'open' or 'cost effective' or how Windows supports open industry standards I'm sure we'd all like to hear it.
 

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Base on your as-long-as-A-works-why-bother-to-know-anything-about-B attitude, how do you know my analogies about A-vs-B are slanted than your wine glass analogy? And more importantly how do you know your wine glass is not actually a leaky paper cup that you can still drink your fine wine in?
Both analogies are slanted, it's just that one of us thinks that one of them is not. :)
As for the leaks, good luck with the "Try our non-leaking glass, in which can you can pour up to 90% of your favourite wines!" campaign. Google didn't think that would work either, so they gain market share by attaching their glass for free on every wine bottle, the producer of which agrees to put it on.
I seriously think that you have two great misconceptions - that I really haven't tried Chrome, and that Chrome is anything other than a tool for further establishing Google's monopoly on world wide online advertising.
 

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Wayne - I gotta say - this is almost a troll type thread starter - and you know I love ya from our OTA/HTPC discussions!

Seriously?

MS stole Apple UI tech and created Windows (I can link if you dispute this). They stole Netscape tech and created IE (well known - no need to link). They then bundled IE with Windows and blackmailed PC makers to use IE or lose Windows (this ended badly for them in court). This is all illegal.

Apple has created a closed ecosystem of hardware and software. You buy in - you get the stuff. This is in NO WAY monopolistic.

It is only "muddied" because Apple decided to develop iTunes for Windows - allowing PC users to also use iPods, iPhones, iPads etc... and tap the larger market hoping for the halo effect to get converts/customers. So now we equate Apple with MS? Nope - no way.

Software Sells Systems - an old Apple motto.

They control the software and hardaware - just like every other cell phone maker and even MP3 player maker. Who cares? We only compare Apple to MS because we somehow think they compete - or are using the same business model. They do not - on either counts.

I applaud Apple for having a supervised App Store. It means stability for me as an end user and successful evolution of the platform.

However, the DEVELOPERS are all independent business people with access to the store. Build a good APP - you are in - you make money if the market agrees.

This is in NO WAY monopolistic or illegal.

It is SMART.
 

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Discussion Starter #90
I am not denying that some of MS' activities are illegal. I am just saying that the things that Apple is doing these days are also very much in the vein of a monopolist.

It is hard to deny that Apple has a monopoly for the sale of applications on iDevices.

I am not saying that I hate either company - after all I was an early adopter of the iPad, at least for Canadians - 2 weeks ago, and I also was a very early adopter for the iPod as I bought one as soon as it was released for Windows( which is before they had a version of iTunes for Windows - they used Musicmatch in early incarnations).

I use Windows on about a half-dozen computers in my home and also a laptop and destop PC at work. But I hate the direction that MS has taken with Windows Media Center, especitally from a Canadian perspective, and I badmouth them on this issue all the time.

I also own, but never use, a Dell Axim x51v PocketPC that runs Windows Mobile 5. That device was not the same as an iPod Touch but it was much more open and would, with the addition of third party players, play a variety of video and audio files and it had an open browsable file system just like your PC.

I TOTALLY LOVE my iPad. I am a gadget freak and it may be the best gadget I have ever owned. But I hate the fact that it won't play 99.9% of the video files that I own - Apple appears to not want the iPad (or other iDevices) to be able to play files like AVIs, MPEGs, TSs and MKVs (generally recorded from TV via my SageTV server) and it appears that Apple will not approve video players for the iPad (other than their own). Sure I can convert my existing video files to Apple friendly formats like .MP4 or .M4V but that takes a lot of time and is a pain in the butt.

I hate the fact that you cannot easily just transfer any file to the device. I hate the fact that from a Windows PC that you cannot just copy a photo file over to the iPad - you have to sync a folder. I don't trust that Apple will ever approve a video player like VLC (which plays pretty much every video format) for use on iDevices. I can understand Apple's perspective on this but it doesn't smell right to me and in the long run and (IANAL) but they are going to run in to legal problems. The current feud with Adobe over Flash highlights this whole issue.

My Netbook (an Acer Aspire One) cost 50 % of what my iPad cost and is much more flexible than my iPad running either WinXP or Linux Mint. But the iPad is much more of a joy to use and the battery lasts a lot longer. I have hardly touched this netbook since I got my iPad.

Many folks may disagree, but that is the way that I see it. Both companies put out some excellent products but they also do things that are disconcerting and that are not in consumers' best interests.
 

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As for the leaks, good luck with the "Try our non-leaking glass, in which can you can pour up to 90% of your favourite wines!" campaign. Google didn't think that would work either, so they gain market share by attaching their glass for free on every wine bottle, the producer of which agrees to put it on.
I can understand why you keep sticking on the single well-agreed fact that a company who already has a big market share does have the advantage to stay in place and why you keep ignoring dirty facts about MS.

I seriously think that you have two great misconceptions - that I really haven't tried Chrome, and that Chrome is anything other than a tool for further establishing Google's monopoly on world wide online advertising.
Those are not misconceptions. My statements were in response to these particular quotes:

I just don't have the uncontrolable urge to look for alternatives of IE, so I haven't even tried Chrome (but I promise that as soon as I encounter even the slightest need for that or at least one problem with IE or Firefox I will try it ).
I'm far from the idea of even attempting to dig through corporate legal matters, because it's way over my head. The same applies for (I guess) everyone else posting here
We are all aware of the idea of Google using Chrome as a tool to get traction. There's nothing wrong with that idea, but that perfectly brings back my original point about monopoly vs domination. Whether Google is dominating or monpolising that market, it totally depends on how Google does it. I've explained the difference. Check them and make sure you know the difference.

If you've indeed tried Chrome since your earlier posts, I assume it's not because you have problems with IE but because of this thread. In any case, I'm done with you on this thread.

Peace.:cool:
 

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Apple appears to not want the iPad (or other iDevices) to be able to play files like AVIs, MPEGs, TSs and MKVs (generally recorded from TV via my SageTV server) and it appears that Apple will not approve video players for the iPad (other than their own). Sure I can convert my existing video files to Apple friendly formats like .MP4 or .M4V but that takes a lot of time and is a pain in the butt
Maybe SageTV someday will output .mp4 files. After all, Apple sells about 16 million iDevices a quarter and this feature could be popular. mp4 is a well documented standard with already open source projects using it.

I doubt Apple will play other formats because

1) supporting more formats might not sell more iDevices anyways
2) some formats still haven't been vetted for patent infringement like the H.264 format. If Apple starts using a new format the possibility of a patent troll coming out of the woods and suing a company like Apple with deep pockets exists. That's why companies like Apple avoid mkv file formats and stick to H.264

Why not ask SageTV if they'll output mp4 in the future?
 

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I am not denying that some of MS' activities are illegal. I am just saying that the things that Apple is doing these days are also very much in the vein of a monopolist.

It is hard to deny that Apple has a monopoly for the sale of applications on iDevices.

I am not saying that I hate either company - after all I was an early adopter of the iPad, at least for Canadians - 2 weeks ago, and I also was a very early adopter for the iPod as I bought one as soon as it was released for Windows( which is before they had a version of iTunes for Windows - they used Musicmatch in early incarnations).

I use Windows on about a half-dozen computers in my home and also a laptop and destop PC at work. But I hate the direction that MS has taken with Windows Media Center, especitally from a Canadian perspective, and I badmouth them on this issue all the time.

I also own, but never use, a Dell Axim x51v PocketPC that runs Windows Mobile 5. That device was not the same as an iPod Touch but it was much more open and would, with the addition of third party players, play a variety of video and audio files and it had an open browsable file system just like your PC.

I TOTALLY LOVE my iPad. I am a gadget freak and it may be the best gadget I have ever owned. But I hate the fact that it won't play 99.9% of the video files that I own - Apple appears to not want the iPad (or other iDevices) to be able to play files like AVIs, MPEGs, TSs and MKVs (generally recorded from TV via my SageTV server) and it appears that Apple will not approve video players for the iPad (other than their own). Sure I can convert my existing video files to Apple friendly formats like .MP4 or .M4V but that takes a lot of time and is a pain in the butt.

I hate the fact that you cannot easily just transfer any file to the device. I hate the fact that from a Windows PC that you cannot just copy a photo file over to the iPad - you have to sync a folder. I don't trust that Apple will ever approve a video player like VLC (which plays pretty much every video format) for use on iDevices. I can understand Apple's perspective on this but it doesn't smell right to me and in the long run and (IANAL) but they are going to run in to legal problems. The current feud with Adobe over Flash highlights this whole issue.

My Netbook (an Acer Aspire One) cost 50 % of what my iPad cost and is much more flexible than my iPad running either WinXP or Linux Mint. But the iPad is much more of a joy to use and the battery lasts a lot longer. I have hardly touched this netbook since I got my iPad.

Many folks may disagree, but that is the way that I see it. Both companies put out some excellent products but they also do things that are disconcerting and that are not in consumers' best interests.
Wayne - a couple of things.

First - buy the App "Air Video" for your iPad and then download the free server they include to your PC and set it up. Takes a couple of minutes and works perfectly. This might be the single greatest video streaming app out there. I think it will play all of your various files - encoding on the fly - and solve this issue for you. Kudos for Apple allowing this one. They have a version for the iPhone/iPod Touch as well.

Apple has a monopoly on iDevices:

Sony has a monopoly on items they build. Their product will not talk to Pioneer via the little sync cable. Sony is therefore a monopolist and hurting me?
LG has a monopoly on items they build.
Sharp has a monopoly on the items they build
etc...

Why does everyone paint Apple with MS's brush? Apple may have large market share in certain devices, but they are not forcing you to buy them. You don't need them. That iPod is not essential to your business, or to national security. Apple lowers their prices while adding features regularly. The constantly improve both the hardware and software.

Read about the Flash issues here:

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2010/04/14/chronicles-of-conflict-the-history-of-adobe-vs-apple/

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2010/04/10/five-tremendous-apple-vs-adobe-flash-myths/

I for one do not miss Flash at all. It is mostly there to serve ads anyway - not content.

I can see your complaints about files, photos and stuff. But, you are thinking like a PC user and not an Apple user. That is NOT an insult or in any way a criticism. But as a guy who switched to Macs a few years ago in an instant, I had the same surprises and so I understand why you feel that way.

A few years later now, I just "trust the force" of the whole ecosystem and find it works flawlessly and easily. But, you gotta buy in to the whole tomato.

I agree that the iPad is amazing. I can't wait to see what happens with it over the next few years. Like iPhone, which is due for a HUGE refresh in June (finally a front facing iChat camera!!) this will keep getting better and better - because Jobs sees this as the future.

Should be fun!
 

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Discussion Starter #94
Why not ask SageTV if they'll output mp4 in the future?
It is not an issue of an arbitrary decision made by SageTV - it is an issue of the hardware. OTA digital TV is broadcast in MPEG-2 and OTA "tuners" really just record this digital bitstream to your hard drive. Same thing with clear QAM or firewire capture of HD channels on cable. Older "analog" tuners have hardware MPEG-2 encoders so that the file they generate is also an MPEG-2 file.

The latest generation which can capture HD is the Hauppauge HD-PVR which contains a hardware H.264 encoder - appartently it is pretty much the same chip used in HD camcorders. It writes the files to a .ts H.264 file. Perhaps it is possible for Sage (and/or Hauppauge) to alter the software to write Apple compatible files but with the other file types it isn't possible.

Now there are add-ons to SageTV that can automatically encode Sage recorded TV files to other formats. I do this with kids TV shows as I automatically re-encode them to AVI files (Divx/Xvid) using the built-in Sage encoder. I could consider changing formats but I want to make sure that I am not limiting myself as the AVI files have been very broadly supported by different OSes, video player software, etc. As long as the MP4 files are as broadly supported then I guess I can start doing this tomorrow.
 

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It's been a pleasure for me, gentlemen, to exchange opinions on this interesting topic. In the end, I don't think either side has changed their mind - Camp A (me there) still claims that all successful companies behave the same and are flying under the the radar of anti-cartel legislation only until they get dominating market share, and Camp B still believes it is a fight between good and evil.
With that, I'm also signing off the thread.
 

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Discussion Starter #96
First - buy the App "Air Video" for your iPad and then download the free server they include to your PC and set it up. Takes a couple of minutes and works perfectly. This might be the single greatest video streaming app out there. I think it will play all of your various files - encoding on the fly - and solve this issue for you. Kudos for Apple allowing this one. They have a version for the iPhone/iPod Touch as well.
Air Video was one of the first Apps that I bought for the iPad. It definitely is a very good app, especially for the price, but there are some drawbacks.

Air Video doesn't seem to like folders that have hundred of files. Most PVR software, such as the SageTV that I use, generally records all files to the same folder. Therefore the \\Server\TVShows volume on my WHS box has hundreds of files which Air Video does not like too much. It works much better on other folders but occasionally it seems to timeout when getting file lists/thumbnails from the server. My WHS machine as been behaving slightly strangely lately so it may be related to that as well.
 

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Could someone tell me why anyone would want to stream video to the iPad? If you're at home wouldn't it be much more enjoyable to watch your recorded television programs or movies on your main display instead of the tiny iPad screen? One of the main things that bothers me about the iPad, and why I would never buy one, is that the limited storage capacity and lack of any way to attach external storage such as a flash drive, as well as the lack of compatibility with the formats I normally use, severly limits the amount of content you can carry with you.
 

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Discussion Starter #98
Could someone tell me why anyone would want to stream video to the iPad? If you're at home wouldn't it be much more enjoyable to watch your recorded television programs or movies on your main display instead of the tiny iPad screen?
Here goes:

Watch media where you don't have a TV - like in your backyard, rooms without a TV or "on the throne".
Let your 8 year old daughter watch streaming video on the iPad while you watch sports on your 60" large screen TV (true story for me).
(Minor variation on the above)Watch sports on the iPad while your wife watches a "chick flick" on the main TV alloowing you to spend "quality time" with the wife - I would suggest headphones in this application.
Some people may not have a device that allows them to watch PC content like AVIs or MKVs on their TV(s).
This will also work over the internet so that you can use it to stream media to other locations, even on an airplane if the plane has wifi service.
Because it earns you mucho geek cred!
 

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Well, first of all, I'm not connected to my entertainment system by an umbelical cord. I can live without being connected to everyone and everything. I actually leave home without any electronic devices at all sometimes, even leaving my cell phone at home.

Second...to me, spending 'quality time' with anyone, whether it's my lady or just with friends, rarely includes watching movies on any device. And with a lady, it's generally with soft music and a softer bed. ;) But if the lady wants to watch a chick flick on the big screen, I can watch sports on the slightly smaller unit in the bedroom. When the movie is over she can join me there. :cool:

Finally...after working 30 years in IT, geek cred means absolutely nothing to me. What other people think about me and my interests is as important to me as worrying about which black turtleneck Steve Jobs will wear today. I've been around long enough to know that fads come and go, so do gadgets, and never but never buy a first generation anything because the second generation will be faster, better and cheaper. And the money you save can buy you more geek stuff. Or more Blu-rays!
:p

By the way, iPads are terrible outside in day light so unless you plan on watching that movie in the back yard at night, I wish you lotsa luck.
 

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MS stole Apple UI tech and created Windows
Apple stole the graphical user interface from Xerox PARC originally. History of the graphical user interface. Apple basically invented patenting elements of the graphical interface and suing other companies over its patents. It was rumored that MS put the task bar at the bottom to avoid being sued by Apple. Other graphical interfaces that preceded Windows are Amiga OS and GEM (Atari.) IBM's OS/2 was another that was launched about the time of Windows.
 
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