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Except that he misses the point, why does he get to say no to Flash? If Flash really is as problematic as Steve claims, won't consumers stop buying Flash apps and visiting Flash sites or disable Flash themselves? And if they do that, isn't that a far more powerful motivating factor to switch to HTML5 or whatever Apple wants?

Also Steve condemning Flash for being a closed platform is pretty hilarious.
 

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very well written...that was a great read. Sure does look like Adobe is loosing out with its proprietary system. But what is good for the goose....:D
 

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too many sites that can't be accessed without flash, especially car manufacturer sites (I like going to those sites) and I still need my PC because of the "no flash policy" on my iTouch
 

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Makes Apple look foolish actually. Almost as bad as losing a phone in a bar.

Consumers should drive what's good and bad not Jobs.
 

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Well put me in the Apple column on this one. It was an interesting read and I buy it.
 

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Very nice!

I think that he makes a lot of very good points. It's great to hear this right from the horse's mouth. Very refreshing.

Personally I hate flash, what he says about Mac's crashing because of it couldn't be more to the point (I experienced it a few times). The sooner it goes away the better. This morning I brought up the nhl.com web page on my iPad to find everything working perfectly, even the videos, with no flash whatsoever.

And please, I heard this argument about open/closed in other forums too. Read the letter again, Jobs readily admits that Apple has many closed and proprietary platforms. When he refers to openness he's talking about web standards.

Imagine if Apple would have waited for Adobe to deliver a good mobile flash application, we still wouldn't have the iPhone, iTouch and iPad... ;)

Don't get me wrong, before you think I'm some mindless Apple kool-aid drinker, I fully realize that Apple is first and foremost a for-profit organization and that to a certain extent they are trying to protect their business by not allowing flash. That is certainly part of the equation, but obviously not the only reason, as this letter just proves.

Mods, can we have a poll on this one?
 

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In *some* ways, this is similar to FireFox's decision to not natively support HTML5/H.264 in terms of the reasons Jobs cites for the path Apple has taken - there's something to be said for the use of open standards as much as possible.

Having said that, I find Apple's stance somewhat ironic, given the proprietary nature of most of their products i.e. they're not exactly standing on the moral high ground on this one. :p
 

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There is nothing ironic, he is very clear that "open" refers to web standards:

Apple has many proprietary products too. Though the operating system for the iPhone, iPod and iPad is proprietary, we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open. Rather than use Flash, Apple has adopted HTML5, CSS and JavaScript – all open standards.
 

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Discussion Starter #10

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It's interesting that Adobe says that Flash is a totally open specification yet it doesn't come integrated into any browser, mobile or otherwise. See, Mr. Adobe, I don't want to have to install any plugins to enjoy the web.. the web experience should be entirely based on open standards.
 

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It's not really fair to agree to Job's, without seeing both sides of the story.

I disliked the blame game jobs played with crashing. Adobe products dont crash on my PC, neither does my PC crash to a Adobe product.

Microsoft releases updates often enough to show that, they're atleast trying to fix the problem versus crying out with a finger pointed elsewhere.

Webkit and Microsoft? It's like saying you should get a iPhone because you and your friends have one.
 

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Not that I'm very religious or anything but this reminds me of the "throwing the first stone" bit from the Bible.

So they're both trying to portray themselves as the nicest and most open?

This is the same Apple that forces developers to submit apps to them for scrutiny and censoring function (no wifi hot-spot for you!) or content (tiddies are bad!) on a reguar basis when they are submitted to them for appproval? Yes they're very open in their desire to control and impose their will.

And this is the same Adobe that routinely bashes Canon and Nikon for not adopting the Adobe dng raw standard or alternatively, disclosing every detail about their raw processing so that Adobe can use it in their proprietary raw converters? They are very open in their desire for complete control of digital photo processing.

Just two digital corporate giants acting like two-year-olds... I love it! All we need is Google and Microsoft in there for a great old fashioned tag-team match. Pass the popcorn. :)
 

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I like HTML5. I like it a heck of a lot more than Flash. I wish all the websites I visit used HTML5 instead.

However that hasn't happened. Many websites are in Flash and will stay that way for the foreseeable future. So if web designers are designing in Flash, and Flash is willing to create a plug-in for Apple devices, why does Steve get to say no for me? Why can't I chose to install it or not? There is a big difference between telling people they shouldn't and don't have to use Flash and telling them that they can't use Flash.

If, when Froyo arrives, Flash bogs down my Android phone I will disable it. If I can't disable it I (along with I'm sure many, many others) will raise hell. But at least I'll have that choice.
 

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Adobe CEO responds to Steve Jobs letter in an interview -

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2010/04/29/live-blogging-the-journals-interview-with-adobe-ceo/

Speaking about Mr. Jobs's assertion that Adobe is the No. 1 cause of Mac crashes, Mr. Narayan says if Adobe crashes Apple, that actually has something "to do with the Apple operating system."

Nice. Now I know why Steve Jobs called Adobe's developers 'lazy' awhile back.
I agree with the no-Flash stance, but the Mac argument is kind of a double-edged sword. Apple's OS should be robust to bad programs from companies like Adobe.
 

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Agree with Costa. None of my Adobe programs ever crashed on my PC. If anything, the PC (Windows) crashes by itself... and that doesn't happen to often either, maybe around once every three weeks.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Steve Jobs said Flash crashes the most not Adobe products in general.

Flash is unstable on the Mac. After installing click-to-flash which blocks Flash from loading Safari has been totally stable. Every time an app crashes on a Mac there is an option to send the crash log to Apple. I'm sure their claim that Flash causes the most crashes is backed up by the crash logs they collect.
 

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I like HTML5. I like it a heck of a lot more than Flash. I wish all the websites I visit used HTML5 instead.

However that hasn't happened. Many websites are in Flash and will stay that way for the foreseeable future. So if web designers are designing in Flash, and Flash is willing to create a plug-in for Apple devices, why does Steve get to say no for me? Why can't I chose to install it or not? There is a big difference between telling people they shouldn't and don't have to use Flash and telling them that they can't use Flash.

If, when Froyo arrives, Flash bogs down my Android phone I will disable it. If I can't disable it I (along with I'm sure many, many others) will raise hell. But at least I'll have that choice.
First of, you must have missed the part where Jobs claims that Adobe doesn't even have a viable product yet. They are about to ship one, if it really happens this time. :rolleyes:

Secondly, allowing buggy and poorly implemented software reduces the perceived value of you product. You, as a technically savvy person may realize that flash is the culprit and not the phone hardware or OS but most people will just blame Apple if their iPhone starts misbehaving. As an owner of a Blackberry for many years (who allows pretty much any crap to be installed on their phone) I can testify that Apple has the right approach and they should scrutinize apps and have strict guidelines on how they should be written and implemented and what not...

Lastly, Apple has sold over 50 millions iPhones so far, over 20 million iPod touch and it seems that the iPad will also be a raging success. Give it a year or two and you'll have close to 100 million total users on Apple's platform. How long do you think that web developers who rely on Flash will realize that they are missing out on a big piece of the pie? Like I said in my previous comments, some web sites have already realized this and can produce gorgeous sites without the use of flash and IMO it's for the better.
 

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Which is why I totally get not integrating Flash. But if you allow it to be offered as a plug-in, people will be far more likely to blame Flash for any problems. As it is people just blame Apple for their inability to view certain sites, is that so much better?

If you have to make me jump through a bunch of hoops, that's one thing. But telling me that Apple knows best for me insults me as a technically savvy person. If Adobe is willing to make it, and it won't destroy my hardware, Apple should allow me to install it.
 
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