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Lancaster Ontario: Moving in

Hello all, I'm moving to a new place in Lancaster Ontario, roughly half way between Montreal and Ottawa. Here is my TV fool:

TV Fool

I'd like to point an antenna at the 288/272 degree stations. As you can tell by my tvfool I'm going to need all the help I can get! I'm stuck between buying a large directional antenna such as the Wineguard HD8200P or a db4/db8. Think the 16 degrees of separation between transmitters will be too much for a directional antenna's limits?

Am I right to assume that I will pick up channel 8 no matter what I use, seeing as its so close?

Later on as I expand my setup, I would like to point another antenna at the 119 degree American stations.

Thanks in advance for any recommendations!
 

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dodgeram2500 you will catch CJOH 8 regardless of the setup, but it is analog re-transmitter from Cornwall. I would go with two db8 antennas, preferably CM 4228. Point one antenna to US and one to Montreal. Install antennas as high as possible. Use quality RG6 coax cable.
For starters I would try single CM 4228 pointed towards US. If the results would be satisfactory I would tie in second CM4228 pointed to Montreal. Get good quality, low loss, antenna coupler. The two antennas coupler will introduce some loss, so you might need to use preamp or an amp. With CM 4228 you should catch Montreal VHS stations without any problems. The US WVNY 22 (VHF 13) will be tricky.
The other solution would be to use the HD8200P for the US and CM4228 for Montreal, or use HD8200P by itself on a rotor.
 

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The channel 8 transmitter is actually in Lancaster, so unless you are under the radiation pattern of the transmitter, you will have to take steps to prevent serious overload problems. You will need to filter all VHF signals out of what you get from your UHF antenna, and ensure that the coax is properly grounded - otherwise the shield will pick up channel 8 even with filters in place. For filters, I would use two UVSJs in series (with the wanted signal passing through the 'U' ports and the 'V' ports terminated).

I don't think the 16-degree spread of your signals from Ottawa is too wide for an 8-bay antenna. Check out the specs (particularly the polar diagram) of the Antennas Direct DB8e - user experience reported in forums indicates that it's the top-performing UHF antenna on the North American market at the moment.
 

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dodgeram2500, which Ottawa stations do you want to receive? And which Mount Mansfield ones do you want?
Using a single antenna it is possible you will get neither Global nor NBC (14), CHCH nor CBS (22), or CTV2 nor Fox (43) reliably.
Of course, you can probably get Global on 15 from Montreal, and CBS in HD and Fox in SD from 18 in South Colton.

It will require a lot of experimentation.
 

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Update! Here is my current setup:

I'm using a home built Gray-Hoverman (basic design, no reflectors) clamped to my tv hutch and aimed at roughly 150 degrees (I used the iphone compass...no idea if its true or magnetic. Grand total of 6ft of coax cable. Here are my results:

2-1 CBFT (FRENCH)
3-1 WCAX
3-2 MOVIE
6-1 CBMT
8 CTV
9-1 CBOFT (FRENCH)
17-1 CIVM
33-1 VPBS
33-2 VPBS+
33-3 CREATE
33-4 WORLD
44-1 WFFF (THIS CHANNEL IS UNRELIABLE..CUTS IN AND OUT)
57-1 WCFE
57-2 WCFE
57-3 WCFE

I have experimented with other headings but this one seems to pick up the most channels.
I'm amazed at the results considering the antenna took a half hour to build and cost less than $20!
Here is my TV Fool in case the other one expires.

Question: If I can get fox, wcax, and pbs currently, what can I do to pick up NBC (real channel 14) that is on the same tower? Should I try adding reflectors or a pre amp? I like the idea of the "juice" pre amp because it protects against over boosting the signal, which is an issue being so close to the analog channel 8 antenna.
 

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NBC on real channel 14 has co-channel interference from CIII-DT-6 also on real channel 14, which is coming from 288 degrees. If it is on the air and tvfool is correct, a reflector might help.
 

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Well, built a new antenna with 1/8th welding rods as reflectors. Fox is coming in quite nice now, but I lost 57 WCFE and the french channel 9. Also, my scan now pics up CFCF channel 12 but its not viewable. Making progress!

Does anyone know if the Montreal F1 race will be on anything other than NBC? CBC and CTV are showing "to be announced" on that time slot.
 

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hey guys, i'm about to pull my hair out of my head. This OTA journey has been interesting. I've been coming here on and off for a a few years, but now I need help.
I have a DB4 antenna pointed to Montreal and I have an unknown brand (sister gave it to me) dual bay (db8 style) pointed to Mansfield.
Both antennas are connected to a combiner, then to a channel master booster. In the house, I have a splitter so I can have OTA on two televisions.

When I disconnect the db4, NBC 5,1 & Fox comes in pretty nicely. When both antennas are connected, neither work. Any reason for this? Also, would the fact that I have 3 huge trees in my back yard help in reducing the reception?
Thanks for the help, tips, ideas.

tvfool for reference.
 

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Thank you for the report, it is very helpful.
When I disconnect the db4, NBC 5,1 & Fox comes in pretty nicely. When both antennas are connected, neither work. Any reason for this?
Yes, combining two UHF antennas aimed in different directions doesn't always work. In your case, each separate antenna was able to receive the desired channels, but when they were combined, you lost some channels.

The reason why it doesn't always work is because when the same signals from each antenna reach the combining point, they will interfere with each other if they do not arrive in phase.

There are several ways to work around the problem. One way is to have an A/B switch to select which antenna you want to use. Your TV will need to do a rescan each time you change direction, unless your TV is able to add a channel after scan like a Sony.

Another is to connect antenna A to the antenna input of the TV, and connect antenna B to a separate tuner with its output connected to the aux input of the TV.

There are several other ways, like a custom combiner or a SiliconDust HDHR network, if you want more details.



Trees make the problem worse, because they block TV signals.

Are you using the preamp to amplify all signals after combining, or only using the preamp to amplify the weaker DB8 signals before combining? The local signals from the DB4 are close to the tuner overload point if you are using the 30 dB 7777 for them, which will interfere with the reception of weaker signals. Spurious signals created by IMD raise the noise floor which reduces the SNR of the weak signals.
 

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The preamp is after the signals combining. I will try the preamp on only the db8 and see if it helps at all. Otherwise I think I will just go back to the db4 with preamp.
 

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Hey guys,

I just bought HDhomerun connect and I want to share with you some stats:
Channel 43 FOX is showing signal strength of 98%, signal quality 85%, and symbol quality 100%.
In comparison, channel 13 ABC is showing signal strenght of 50% and signal quality of 41%. Symbol quality is 0%.

I obviously can't watch 13 with my current setup. Is this because of interference with channel 12? or is it because my 2 bay digiwave antenna is mounted in the attic? I will gladly give up ch 12 to pick up ABC. Is there a filter I can use to block ch 12 and see if I have better luck with ch 13?

Thanks
 

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camilleisfunky

Is this tvfool report still good for you?
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de2cb322e470a73

As ogorek previously told you, you need an antenna for VHF-High (real channels 7-13) to have a chance to receive ABC.
Camilleisfunky your antenna is UHF only. WVNY 22 is now on channel 13 which is VHF. In some rare cases people get ABC from here using UHF only antenna but it's not easy. Some people have success with CM 4228 8 bay. The good quality antenna has to be high and point precisely to Mount Mansfield with as little obstructions as possible. Your antenna is not top quality. It is installed in the attic. It would be a miracle for you do get WVNY 22 with your current setup.
Check the antenna section here for recommended retail or do it yourself antennas for VHF-Hi - UHF.
You can add a VHF-High antenna to your UHF 2-bay using the separate inputs of your RCA preamp, or with a UVSJ UHF-VHF combiner with the combined input.

An inexpensive MCM 30-2475 or 30-2476 can be assembled in the attic.

You do have adjacent channel interference from 12, but it is in a different direction. The antenna pattern might be able to reject 12 when aimed at 13. If not, then you will need a custom filter to attenuate 12.

12 has a NM of 58.9 dB
13 has a NM of 21.7 dB
the difference is 37.2 dB
A max of 33 dB is allowed
The antenna pattern might give you the extra dBs needed

 

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Yes, combining two UHF antennas aimed in different directions doesn't always work. In your case, each separate antenna was able to receive the desired channels, but when they were combined, you lost some channels.

The reason why it doesn't always work is because when the same signals from each antenna reach the combining point, they will interfere with each other if they do not arrive in phase.

Trees make the problem worse, because they block TV signals.

Are you using the preamp to amplify all signals after combining, or only using the preamp to amplify the weaker DB8 signals before combining? The local signals from the DB4 are close to the tuner overload point if you are using the 30 dB 7777 for them, which will interfere with the reception of weaker signals. Spurious signals created by IMD raise the noise floor which reduces the SNR of the weak signals.
So if I was to get a Yagi (cm-3020) and point it at Mansfield, would it help? I would also use the db4 pointed towards Mt-royal for the Montreal channels.
 

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So if I was to get a Yagi (cm-3020) and point it at Mansfield, would it help? I would also use the db4 pointed towards Mt-royal for the Montreal channels.
The CM3020 might work for Mt. Mansfield, but it has less UHF gain than the DB8 clone, and is a BIG antenna because it also covers VHF-Low, real channels 2-6, which you don't have. It does cover VHF-High, which might make the reception of WVNY on real channel 13 possible. If you do want to try for WVNY, a Winegard HD7698P would be more suitable. If you don't care about WVNY, stick with the DB8 clone.

But you still have the problem of combining two UHF antennas aimed in different directions.

 

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Thank you for the information.
Could you please recommend a store that carries the MCM antennas?
Thanks!
Those two VHF-High antennas are sold by MCM under their house brand of Stellar Labs.
Stellar Labs Fringe Directional Antenna VHF-Hi HDTV 174 - 230MHz | 30-2475 (302475) | Stellar Labs
Stellar Labs Deep Fringe Directional Antenna VHF-Hi HDTV 174 - 230MHz | 30-2476 (302476) | Stellar Labs

I don't know what their policy is about shipping to your location.

The Stellar Labs antennas are made for MCM by Qiaohua in China, who make antennas for sale under other brands.
Vhf Antennas, Vhf TV Antennas, Vhf Outdoor TV Antenna

They might be sold in Canada under another brand.

You can ask on the DHC thread:
Where Can I buy and general buying discussions
Where Can I buy and general buying discussions - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

If you can't have one shipped to you by MCM, or you can't find one in Canada, you might consider a UHF/VHF combo antenna like the Winegard HD7698P aimed at WVNY.
Save and Replay sells Winegard antennas
HDTV Antenna, OTA Over the Air ,Channel Master,Winegard, Antennas Direct, Ooma and Streaming TV G-Box. HDTV Antenna OTA Experts in GTA Toronto Mississauga Canada
 

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DB8e vs CM-4228 Montreal West Island

I'm considering putting up an antenna on a bungalow in Beaconsfield, south of Hwy 20. I'm looking at either the CM-4228 or the Antennas Direct DB8e. I've noticed that the CM-4228 is fairly popular and reported by many to work well in the West Island. I came across a seller in the Toronto Area that reports the Antenna Direct DB8e works even better than the CM-4228. There are also vhf add ons available for the DB8e (perhaps good for receiving ABC's WVNY-22). Does anyone have any experience or advice regarding the DB8e vs Cm-4228 in the Montreal West Island area?
TV Fool
 
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