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DXer, many areas of the Island of Montreal that are not shaded by Mount Royal have direct line of site to Mount Mansfield. In those cases, it is more likely to be a local noise source that is obliterationg the American signals.
As you say, a TVFool report can shed some light on the matter. As always, a report generated from satellite view rather than from an address of postal code is best.
 

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DXer, many areas of the Island of Montreal that are not shaded by Mount Royal have direct line of site to Mount Mansfield. In those cases, it is more likely to be a local noise source that is obliterating the American signals.
As you say, a TVFool report can shed some light on the matter. As always, a report generated from satellite view rather than from an address of postal code is best.
 

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Greek or Geek, nothing but a letter difference!

Here is my tvfool report, I hope it will shed some light on things. As of 5 minutes ago, still no signal on distant channels.


 

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DXer, many areas of the Island of Montreal that are not shaded by Mount Royal have direct line of site to Mount Mansfield.
From where I placed the OP's general location, Mt Mansfield was 2 edge, but now I see it's 1 edge.

As always, you could be right!
 

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OTA Antenna from Montreal to Mt. Mansfield

Hi,

I am located in Montreal and am looking at purchasing an antenna to reach Mt. Mansfield to get CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX and PBS. I am 80 miles from the antenna towers.

TVFool shows all 5 networks in the "red" signal strength range, with FOX being the weakest (-6.1db).

I was looking at Digiwave products - I noticed that the ANT2084. ANT2085, ANT2086, ANT2092 (with amp), ANT2104, ANT2110, ANT2190 all basically have the same specifications (antenna gain, 130-140km distance, etc.). The prices are all between $40-80 CAD at BestBuy, Walmart or Amazon.

I also looked at the 1byone (https://www.amazon.ca/1byone-Amplified-Mounting-Extremely-Performance/dp/B01KUXVKK0) which seems to advertise an 85 mile (130-140km) range for a little over $50 and has terrific reviews.

My question is- which is the best option? They all seem more or less the same. Or is there a better option than these listed in the same price range?

Any suggestions are welcome. Thank you for your time.
 

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Hi Simplejim!

Do you have your TVFool report (copy past the link please)? For my part, I'm 88 miles from Mt Mansfield and 16 miles from Mt Royal. My antenna is in my attic and home made with 32" reflector so that I can pick up ABC (Rf 13 VHF-Hi). I'm using a Kitztech pre-amplifier.

I don't have any experience with digiwave but reading from other members more experienced than me, it looks like crap! Don't get me wrong, you will pick up channels but not as optimal.

The one from your amazon link... might be good but I would trust antennas like Antena direct, channel master or televes. The more the antenna goes up in height, the greater the range. You can take a 20 mile range antenna but if you mount it on your roof... you will get greater distance.
 

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Emporium,

You have to consider that by not aiming the antenna at Mt-Royal you kind of attenuate the signals from it. So a pre-amp wont hurt at all.

A cheap but good pre-amp is the RCA TVPRAMP1R, a clone of the old CM7778.

Next spring I'll get the Winegard HDA-200 24 dB. Another good pre-amp is the LNA-200 (Boost XT) that took over the old AP-8700.

So a pre-amp in Goldyflix's case would bring him a reliable reception, above all for Télé-Québec :wink
.
i came back from the dead :p,so i just ordered a RCA TVPRAMP1Z (and theres 2 input from antenna,Separate or combined inputs for UHF/VHF) wich one do i use, and i wont be using a splitter or distribution box i ordered myself an hdhomerun connect quattro, makes my life alot simpler.
 

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Goldyflix,

"mount pelletier vmt" does not exist, there's a small town called Montpelier and it's the capital of Vermont.

Point your antenna at Mount Mansfield, 160 degrees magnetic with a compass . . .
.
Thank you for the information, i would of corrected my previous post but theres no edit option.
 

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thank you all for your information and guidance, special thank to Bouval,he didnt mind my ignorance.now i get 31 channels (some are doubles (hd/sd) but i get flawless teleQC and Vermont channels) the combination of the 4221hd and the RCA amp + 160 deg install was on point( 3 storey building and installed the antenna on a 6ft emt pole , now just waiting for my hdhomerun to get all them channels distributed in my whole house. really happy with the end result.
 

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Hi, I live in a condo in TMR and I proposed to the Board to install an antenna on the rooftop terrace and use the building coax cabling system to distribute the signal to the interested condo units. They asked me for estimates. Can you refer to installers who could provide quotes, please?
 

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Hi again,

Would someone kindly analyze this TVfool report?

TV Fool

I am able to easily receive all channels in Montreal (everything in green and yellow) with a 4 bay bowtie antenna I made with some spare wire coat hangers. I also get 15.1 and 15.2 (Global Montreal, not shown on the report).

My goal is to be able to get WCAX, WPTZ, WFFF, WVNY, WETK and WCFE (PBS Mountain Lake - for some reason it is not shown on tvfool).

I wonder if a CM-4221 (+/- a preamp?) or CM-4228 would do the trick? Or any other reliable models?

I would also prefer to mount this in my attic, but I can put it on the roof if absolutely necessary to achieve the 6 channels I am aiming for.

Thank you all!
 

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You can try Léo Gobeil at Techno Numérique to get an antenna installation quote.
I've used him in the past, and highly recommend him.


Techno Numérique
Léo Gobeil
514-575-0561
 

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Would someone kindly analyze this TVfool report?
TV Fool
Thank you for the TVFool report; I will try an analysis.
I am able to easily receive all channels in Montreal (everything in green and yellow) with a 4 bay bowtie antenna I made with some spare wire coat hangers. I also get 15.1 and 15.2 (Global Montreal, not shown on the report).
Congratulations on your DIY 4-bay antenna. I think CKMI is Global on your report.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CKMI-DT



My goal is to be able to get WCAX, WPTZ, WFFF, WVNY, WETK and WCFE (PBS Mountain Lake - for some reason it is not shown on tvfool).
Your goal will be difficult to achieve; I will explain why shortly. WCFE does not show on your TVFool report because they are using a defective database to generate the reports. They have a very small staff that is not able to keep up with the changes caused by the FCC UHF Repack. WCFE is listed on a report from rabbitears.info; it will be moving to channel 36:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WCFE



The US channels that you want are MUCH weaker than your local channels, so they need a preamp. But, a preamp and your tuner will be overloaded by your strong local channels. CBFT has a Noise Margin of 76.9 dB even before adding any antenna gain. If you add about 10 dB antenna gain, that brings you up to a NM of 86.9 dB; clearly overload territory.



Interpreting Noise Margin in the TV Fool Report

Chuck's Digital TV Page

One thing that you can try is a very directional antenna that has a narrow beamwidth aimed at the US channels which will make the local channels a little weaker because of the narrow antenna pattern. The US channels are at 149 degrees true (163 degrees magnetic), and the local channels are at 106 degrees true, for a difference of 43 degrees.
I wonder if a CM-4221 (+/- a preamp?) or CM-4228 would do the trick? Or any other reliable models?
The 4221, which is a 4-bay UHF antenna, has a wide beamwidth, so it would not be suitable. The 4228 has a narrower beamwidth, so if you aimed it at the US channels, it would make your local signals weaker in comparison, which might allow you to use a an overload resistant preamp like the Antennas Direct Juice.

WCAX on real channel 20 has adjacent channel interference from CBMT on channel 21, as indicated by the red highlighted "a" next to its callsign in the report, that is 70.4 dB stronger. A tuner is not expected to reject adjacent channel interference that is more than 33 dB stronger. Even if the antenna is aimed at WCAX which will make CBMT weaker, it might not be enough. Tin Lee Electronics can make custom filters for adjacent channel interference, but they are very expensive.

WPTZ on channel 14 has adjacent channel interference from CKMI on 15.

WFFF on 43 doesn't have adjacent channel interference, but it is weaker. However, it will be moving to channel 16, where it will have adjacent channel interference from CKMI on 15. We will be seeing more problems like that because of the shrinking UHF TV band as a result of FCC Repack that gave the upper channels to cellular interests.
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WFFF

WVNY on 13, which has adjacent channel interference from CFCF, will be moving to channel 7. You will need an antenna for VHF-High (ch 7-13); a UHF antenna doesn't have enough gain for WVNY.
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WVNY

You will need a separate antenna like one of these for WVNY:
http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2475/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/48Y8141#

http://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/30-2476/fringe-directional-antenna-vhf/dp/71Y5462

I would also prefer to mount this in my attic, but I can put it on the roof if absolutely necessary to achieve the 6 channels I am aiming for.
The signals will be weaker in the attic, but I think it is worth a test. Try the easy way first.

I will expand my analysis when I have more time; it's lunchtime.
 

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simpeljim

Here you can see the difference in beamwidth between the original 4221 and the original 4228. It should be about the same for the 4221HD vs the 4228D, but their patterns are not available:





If you aim the 4228 at the US channels, your local strong channels will be about 10 to 15 dB weaker:



If that isn't enough attenuation of the local signals, the only solutions left are individual single channel custom bandpass filters for each desired US channel or the Two-Antenna Trick, Outdoor, as described on hdtvprimer.com, which places the strong channels in a null in the antenna pattern to make them even weaker.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html#TAT

Your location would use a variation of Example #3.

The problem with that method is that you can't get the two 4-bay antennas close enough together to get 43 degrees between a peak and the null unless you modify the reflector.
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked/horizontallystackeduhfantennas/hstacked2xcm4221hdhackednullbeam
 

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Thank you for such an in depth analysis - this went beyond my expectations, rabbit73. I really appreciate it.

Until I read your report, I did not fully appreciate how complicated this setup might be - just my luck that I have one of the more complicated (or interesting, depending on your perspective) signal configurations :)

Yesterday, I managed to get into the attic to test the "coat hanger" 4 bay bowtie antenna with reflector taken from a piece of metal fencing/mesh used for retaining wall construction. I was able to get all the local channels in my area again, but while trying to point south to Mountain Lake PBS (which is UFA and only ~60ish miles away) I was unable to capture a signal. Perhaps a gray-hoverman design (diamond shape) with vhf "hats" could achieve better results, but I am beginning to wonder if coat hangers are sufficient to generate a strong enough signal. If that does not work, I would be much more inclined to purchase antenna equipment (ie: what you suggested).

Indeed, I had thought about what you said regarding signal overload from the stations I am in close proximity to. Perhaps if I point a directional antenna "away" from 106 degrees and towards 149 degrees, or even slightly more southwest, effectively attenuating the local signals as shown in example #3, I could receive all the stations.

Another idea - perhaps I can use the attic to my advantage as an "attenuator" - seeing that I need to attenuate the local signals that are 3 miles away, but I need to "preamp" the signals 60 miles away (WCFE) and 80 miles away (WVNY, WCAX, WPTZ, WFFF, WETK).

Is the gray-hoverman design (or my current bow-tie design) directional enough to achieve what you suggest while simply adding a preamplifier? I could easily build that from coat hanger material if that would be sufficient.

Thank you again for your reply.
 

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Thank you for your interesting reply; looks like you have some ideas to try.
Perhaps a gray-hoverman design (diamond shape) with vhf "hats" could achieve better results,
The UHF gain and beamwidth would be similar to a properly constructed 4-bay bowtie antenna, but there are recent improvements in both types of antennas, as a result of computer modeling.
I am beginning to wonder if coat hangers are sufficient to generate a strong enough signal.
Some "coat hanger" antennas don't perform very well because of bad design; I'm not sure what dimensions you are using. The worst design uses whiskers that are too short (7"), has vertical spacing of the bays that is too close (5"), has no reflector or the reflector too close, and has the elements screwed to wood which creates signal loss.

The classic M4 design has 9-1/2" elements on each side, 9" vertical bay spacing, and the elements on plastic insulators. For more gain at the low end of the UHF band, the dimensions can be increased.



http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweather.com/index.html

http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweather.com/Drawings/PDF%20Drawings.html

Indeed, I had thought about what you said regarding signal overload from the stations I am in close proximity to. Perhaps if I point a directional antenna "away" from 106 degrees and towards 149 degrees, or even slightly more southwest, effectively attenuating the local signals as shown in example #3, I could receive all the stations.
That would make the local signals weaker, but it might not be enough. What you want to try is not as effective as example #3, which is a special technique because it uses two 4-bay antennas fed out of phase to split the main beam in two that provides the attenuating null for the strong local signals.
Another idea - perhaps I can use the attic to my advantage as an "attenuator" - seeing that I need to attenuate the local signals that are 3 miles away, but I need to "preamp" the signals 60 miles away (WCFE) and 80 miles away (WVNY, WCAX, WPTZ, WFFF, WETK).
That is worth a test. If you aim the antenna at 149 and put up a screen to block the 106 degree signals without blocking the 149 signals. You could use metal screening on a wood frame or aluminum foil on cardboard.
Is the gray-hoverman design (or my current bow-tie design) directional enough to achieve what you suggest while simply adding a preamplifier? I could easily build that from coat hanger material if that would be sufficient.
They are not directional enough without a screen to block the local signals.

These are extreme examples of how to limit the acceptance angle of an antenna:





 

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Thank you again for the reply.

I built the bowtie antenna with 8" elements and 9" spacing. I cannot recall where I found the blueprint. I added a reflector as I mentioned made of metal mesh from house construction material. I also (unfortunately) mounted the bowties on a piece of plywood, not considering that wood will cause signal loss. Probably not the most optimal design.

I just completed a GH10n design this afternoon (also mounted on plywood prior to seeing your reply), but I will probably not have time to fully test it until tomorrow.

Would I be able to combine a gray-hoverman and a bowtie out of phase as you discussed above?
 
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