Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
101 - 120 of 450 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
5,062 Posts
CIII Channel 6 Paris

Looks like they're anticipating less than a 25km shrinkage in the digital grade A coverage footprint (compared to current analog). That seems somewhat ambitious to me for 4kW ERP on channel 6.

Comparatively, Paris is about the same distance that I am from Toronto. And while I can easily pick up a 4kW UHF station from Toronto (using a tower and high-gain antenna), I wonder about a 4kW VHF station at about the same distance. Yet channel 6 is expected to reach Toronto. If you're getting local noise on VHF low, you're likely going to be SOL if you're in grade B range from Paris.

Those in London may want to start shopping for a high-gain VHF low array.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
469 Posts
Looks like they're anticipating less than a 25km shrinkage in the digital grade A coverage footprint (compared to current analog). That seems somewhat ambitious to me for 4kW ERP on channel 6.

Comparatively, Paris is about the same distance that I am from Toronto. And while I can easily pick up a 4kW UHF station from Toronto (using a tower and high-gain antenna), I wonder about a 4kW VHF station at about the same distance. If you're getting local noise on VHF low, you're likely going to be SOL if you're in grade B range from Paris.

Those in London may want to start shopping for a high-gain VHF low array.
Yeah, I also found the small radial reduction very optimistic given the 25x power reduction. Hopefully it is accurate.

Another interesting point is that it looks like they are getting a new antenna (worth $30000).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
747 Posts
I am able to get CJIQ-FM kW which is just 10kW. So I will be expecting to be able to get CIII with little issue.

The trick is to get an FM antenna or a true VHF antenna.

Read ya l8r,
Al
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,255 Posts
I am able to get CJIQ-FM kW which is just 10kW. So I will be expecting to be able to get CIII with little issue.
The difference is FM uses much less bandwidth (0.2 MHz instead of 6 MHz) so it needs much less power to cover the same area.

The trick is to get an FM antenna or a true VHF antenna.
An FM antenna might work, since channel 6 is adjacent to the FM band, but the gain will likely start to roll off below 88 MHz (the bottom of the FM band). It also will make the problem of FM interference worse.

Most VHF antennas have lower gain for VHF-LO than VHF-HI since the elements need to be much larger and spaced further apart.

Depending on your location, these ideas may help though. In the US, stations staying on VHF-Lo had to apply for an emergency massive increase in power though as they didn't include the much higher noise floor on VHF in their calculations. It looks like Industry Canada is making the same mistakes.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
5,062 Posts
Another interesting point is that it looks like they are getting a new antenna (worth $30000).
I didn't see that in the Paris filings...must have missed it. Either way, the existing antenna was purchased in 1970, so they've had a good run with it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
339 Posts
I didn't see that in the Paris filings...must have missed it. Either way, the existing antenna was purchased in 1970, so they've had a good run with it.
I'm kinda hoping the fact that their antenna is from 1970 may have something do with the crap signal they put into London, thus maybe... just maybe giving me a change to pick up their future digital signal with a new antenna on their stick.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,239 Posts
Yeah, I also found the small radial reduction very optimistic given the 25x power reduction. Hopefully it is accurate.

Another interesting point is that it looks like they are getting a new antenna (worth $30000).
Not sure where you got this idea. The Engineering Brief is quite clear: (bolding is mine)
2.0 DISCUSSION
Canwest currently operates CllI-TV at 100 kW/316.1 mon CH6 from a site near Paris, ON. The Post-Transition associated allotment is CIII-PT at4 kW/316.1 m, also on CH6. Canwest proposes to "flash cut" the NTSC operation at the end of Transition.

The proposed operation will operate on CH6 at parameters of 4 kW ERP / 311.3 m EHAAT, using the existing antenna/feed system.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
469 Posts
Not sure where you got this idea. The Engineering Brief is quite clear: (bolding is mine)
It seems there is a bit of a contradiction then. In section 2.3 of DM#1420742 - 2010-1180-9 - APP - REVISED - APP-Doc2 Form 132 Application Paris.pdf (page 9 of 11) it says the estimated install costs of the transmitter is $270000 and the install cost of $30000 for the antenna install (300k in total).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,239 Posts
It seems there is a bit of a contradiction then. In section 2.3 of DM#1420742 - 2010-1180-9 - APP - REVISED - APP-Doc2 Form 132 Application Paris.pdf (page 9 of 11) it says the estimated install costs of the transmitter is $270000 and the install cost of $30000 for the antenna install (300k in total).
I saw the 30,000 for the antenna, but I tend not to believe all the items in the form, because the amounts don't always get compartmentalized properly.

For example, in CTV's CKY application, where they say they are installing a new elliptically-polarized antenna, there is no amount in the tranmittter box, but 2.7 million in the transmitter box.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,131 Posts
It seems there is a bit of a contradiction then.
I wonder if the $300,000 estimate was used to leverage the CRTC regarding digital transition costs but the reality is that it is not necessary. I also wonder if the CRTC will catch on to these contradictions and stop coddling broadcasters.

Looks like they're anticipating less than a 25km shrinkage in the digital grade A coverage footprint (compared to current analog).
That's 25km off a BS coverage footprint. Paris is an idiotic place to put a transmitter for London coverage. London is supposed to be class B but it's far from even that. Much of the city is 1 or 2 edge and the noise level destroys what little signal is left. I need 40' for one edge and 50' for LOS. Erie, PA probably gets a better CIII signal than London, but maybe that was the idea in the first place.

I am able to get CJIQ-FM kW which is just 10kW.
FM is not comparable to TV. I can get a clear audio signal from channel 6 on the car radio but need a high gain yagi 40' up to get an analog TV signal that is even watchable.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
5,062 Posts
ScaryBob: I can't disagree with you. More than a third of the Toronto transmitter coverage footprint overlaps that of the Paris transmitter footprint. And I've mentioned this before: They should relocate the site closer to London--perhaps Woodstock.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
5,062 Posts
The Paris site is only about 11 or so miles away, south of the town of Ayr. I'll be keeping an eye on it from time to time (and CKCO channel 13) to see what changes to the tower--if any--occur up to the transition date.

I believe channel 28 (CICA) TVO is on the same tower as Global as well...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,255 Posts
Paris is an idiotic place to put a transmitter for London coverage. London is supposed to be class B but it's far from even that. Much of the city is 1 or 2 edge and the noise level destroys what little signal is left.
It may have made sense when the transmitter was built in 1974 and the "Toronto" repeater was actually in Uxbridge. Now that their primary transmitter is on the CN Tower, and post transition it will have even larger contours than it does in analog, this transmitter should move further west.
 

·
OTA Forum Moderator
Joined
·
24,867 Posts
Jase88 said:
I believe channel 28 (CICA) TVO is on the same tower as Global as well...
I see only Global listed in Paris so maybe the TVO info for the same place is different?

EDIT: I just saw CICO 28 TVO and several other Kitchener listings with the same lat and long. as CIII Paris.

If there is any chance that the transmitter site could be moved west I would hope that Global is not bound by a contract with TVO to remain in Paris... :eek: Maybe Rogers has room for them in Woodstock up with their CITY repeater?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,255 Posts
I believe channel 28 (CICA) TVO is on the same tower as Global as well...
Yes, both CBLN-TV-1 and CICO-TV-28 are on the same tower as CIII-TV. It looks like CBLN-TV-1 will be shut down. As for CICO-TV-28, I would like to see it moved to either CKCO's or CBLFT-8's tower. Although the former may not be able to support a UHF antenna and the latter will apparently be shutdown, so they would likely have to buy the tower.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
420 Posts
more to the story

Yes, both CBLN-TV-1 and CICO-TV-28 are on the same tower as CIII-TV. It looks like CBLN-TV-1 will be shut down. As for CICO-TV-28, I would like to see it moved to either CKCO's or CBLFT-8's tower. Although the former may not be able to support a UHF antenna and the latter will apparently be shutdown, so they would likely have to buy the tower.
I think a few of these and other suggestions are oversimplified; if only it were simple to just move TV transmitters from one site to another...

Global's Paris transmission site at 475 Ayr Road, probably offsets the cost of Global (well, Shaw, now) operating their channel 6 VHF transmitter since the facility also leases space to not only TVO channel 28 and CBC channel 56, but also Conestoga College's CJIQ 88.3FM, Corus' CKBT 91.5FM, CBLA-FM-2 89.1FM (CBC Radio One), CBL-FM-2 90.7FM (CBC Radio Two), and CJBC-2 89.9FM (CBC French). There's three shacks at the base of the tower; CBC has a huge FM radio combiner for all stations sharing the same FM antenna with colocated equipment in the CBC shack except for 91.5 The Beat, which is in Global's shack. TVO's shack houses a backup diesel generator for their needs and shares it with CBC; Global has their own generator. Further complicating matters is STL -- the Global Paris site is all satellite fed; CJIQ may use a DSL line, but the point is moot. CTV's CKCO Baden site is microwave fed, and Radio Canada's "St. Agatha" site I'm not sure... it might use fibre. One cannot simply up and relocate a transmitter without significant STL cost since these sites are out in the rural township with limited communications options.

Also consider that nearby CTV Baden hill site hosts CKCO channel 13 + CFCA 105.3 'KOOL-FM' + 96.7 CHYM-FM radio stations. Radio Canada's "St. Agatha" site off Wilby Road hosts SRC channel 61 + CKWR 98.5 FM + 106.7 CIKZ-FM 'KIX'. Nobody (as a site owner) is reasonably going to just abandon one of these tower sites when there's multiple paying tenants.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
747 Posts
Contour maps are generated by professional engineers for regulatory use and may not depict the actual viewing area of the station on all points of that map. Always check the Reception thread for your area for real world experiences.
CIHF3 Moncton

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
747 Posts
Contour maps are generated by professional engineers for regulatory use and may not depict the actual viewing area of the station on all points of that map. Always check the Reception thread for your area for real world experiences.
\

CIHF14 Charlottetown

 
101 - 120 of 450 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top