[timlocke]

From BNN.CA at 3:50 pm

"A judge has struck down the Harper cabinet’s 2009 decision to overrule the CRTC and instead let a cell carrier with Egyptian ties operate in Canada.

“That decision was based on errors of law and must be quashed,” Justice Roger Hughes of Federal Court wrote on Friday.

He put in place a 45-day stay of judgment in order to avoid chaos and give the carrier, Globalive, a chance to go back to the federal telecom regulator. This means Globalive can keep operating for now.

The appeal to Federal Court was brought by Public Mobile, a wireless competitor. It had asked for the judicial review, arguing the Harper cabinet exceeded its authority when it allowed Globalive and its Wind Mobile brand to operate despite the fact it wasn't sufficiently Canadian-owned or controlled for the Canadian Radio-television Telecommunications Commission.

more at http://www.bnn.ca/News/2011/2/4/Court-quashes-Tory-cabinets-Globalive-decision.aspx

Edit by TorontoColin: The decision has been overturned, please see post 111

 

[redzone]

so does this give globe alive the ability to sue the gov for all the money its dumped into towers?

wonder if this will actauly ever lead to anything other then the gov finding a different reason to let them operate.

 

[peano]

Yikes! Is it the RC Act that determines foreign ownership?

 

[recneps77]

Even if they're ordered to reduce foreign investment, I doubt they'd have trouble getting new investment now that they have become established. They have come a LONG way from zero and have a substantial user base now.

 

[peano]

Tories talking about a new bill to allow more foreign ownership. YAHOO!!!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...orks-for-telecom-bernier-says/article1894874/

Hope it will apply to TV too.

 

[Stilgar]

This is ludicrous. Who is in charge? If the government is going to quash rulings by the CRTC just to have the CRTC turn around and quash the quash, nothing will ever get done. I really think it's time for the government to finally quash the CRTC. They've outlived their usefulness, they are obviously corrupt, and have demonstrated over and over again they do not have the Canadian Consumer's interest in mind.

 

[Rockjock]

so does this give globe alive the ability to sue the gov for all the money its dumped into towers?

wonder if this will actauly ever lead to anything other then the gov finding a different reason to let them operate.

actually no they can not sue them. You see the CRTC and IC had 2 separate standards that had to be made. There was a provision in the process that if the company failed one of the standards they would lose their right to operate. Wind's ownership structure is whats in question. 65% more like 99%.. 250k? under 200k they have been trying for foregin investment since launch. It was hard to believe that Orascom would invest all the money, supply all the experts, supply all the handsets, use its buying power to get said handsets and have no control... This also raises the question will the details oh how the decision was over turned the first time come to light? All in all this is not going well.. people in wind have said they are running a skeleton crew, not spending any money and have cut some staff.. couple that with the outsourcing to India and Egypt for the call centers.. the sale.. it all adds up to make it a difficult time ahead.

 

[wlee15]

It's not the CRTC the quashed the ruling, it's the Federal Court.

 

[Rockjock]

It's not the CRTC the quashed the ruling, it's the Federal Court.

The original quash was from the CRTC. Twice actually.

 

[Blackburst]

Whoever is in charge has to be elected from the people. The CRTC is not an elected body. The MP's the form the government are elected.

 

[timlocke]

Whoever is in charge has to be elected from the people. The CRTC is not an elected body. The MP's the form the government are elected.

Exactly and some years back the people voted for a government that felt that the Telecoms act was a good and proper thing. The current government may absolutely rework that act or repeal it if a majority of MPs and Senators agree with them. I suspect that a majority of the current set of MPs and Senators would NOT agree to a hastily worked out change to the Act...although a carefully done new 21st century Telecoms act might get enough agreement to be passed. But that would take at least a year of discussions and hearings.

 

[U]

Whoever is in charge has to be elected from the people. The CRTC is not an elected body. The MP's the form the government are elected.

True but we are still a country of laws and the law says that the Government erred in its decision to overturn the CRTC decision. The Government is not above the law. It can try and modify it I guess, but I believe that given their situation (minority) it may not be as simple as it seems.

 

[hugh]

Yahoo!

what I wrote in Post #8 of this thread

Although I was highly critical of the CRTC's decision after Industry Canada had previously approved Globalive's corporate structure, today's decision clearly shows that the Federal Government is corrupt (and I use that word in its truest sense meaning the government is not working properly not in the sense that bribes are taking place)

The capriciousness of this decision terrifies because it shows our politicians and bureaucrats are NOT operating under the rule of law which, history tells us, leads to more corruption and more unsound decisions.

I want Wind in Canada, however, I want Wind to be in Canada because it followed the rules and NOT because a bunch of politicians got together in a backroom and overturned the rules of the land

Glad to see the court agrees.

 

[scrooloose]

The court may agree but I don't think the people will!

-Mike

 

[hugh]

Mike, as I said before

But seriously, I agree about the foreign ownership issue but that's not what the laws of Canada require. I believe all company's and politicians should abide by the law. Telus and the CRTC decision would suggest that Mr. Clement and his political peers have made a decision that contravenes the laws of Canada.

My belief is that, if the laws are wrong, then change them so everyone operates on a level playing field but don't make arbitrary backroom political decisions that essentially tell the country that "whoever gets the ear of the minister gets the winning decision.

If the government doesn't like it then get a majority in parliament and change the laws.

 

[judyz]

If the Government wants to change the rules that is fine. Write a new law and pass it with a majority in Parliament. That is how our democracy is supposed to work. Instead they tried to just use the powers of cabinet to over rule the law of the land. That simply isn't fair, legal or right. This government has done both good and bad and I don't want to demonize anyone or get into political choices but if you want to make a change you need to respect the system and change the laws. Cabinet cannot run the country on it's own (especially when they do not have a Majority Government).

This is the right decision mostly because it recognizes that Wind didn't have to play by the rules. Wind has managed to build a much larger network much faster thanks to the money they could get from overseas. Everyone else had to play by the rules and keep their ownership Canadian. If we want to open up the ownership rules that is a change that should be debated and the law should be changed but individual companies should not be given a pass that doesn't apply to others.

 

[TorontoColin]

The court basically decided that the federal government doesn't have the authority to overturn the foreign ownership rules. Parliament does, so expect the government to attempt to bring in legislation to change the foreign ownership rules. However, don't expect an attempt to dissolve the CRTC with a minority government.

I don't think Globalive is going away, it's too late for that. They'll just have to find a legal way around the current rules. And if they are forced out, they are well within their rights to sue the government (though I doubt they would win) for telling them they can operate when they did not have the power to do so and costing them millions in network infrastructure investments.

For the record, Wind is continuing to operate business as usual in the meantime and is actually adding staff, particular at their Mississauga call centre, as well as continuing to add towers.

 

[Rockjock]

Find a legal way around it? So you are saying they have to bend the rules because they are guilty? I took the announcement as the matter was looked into and indeed Wind did not comply and they had 45 days to do so or... close up shop? Thew fact is At the 11th ours after everyone else followed the rules Wind pulls a camel out of a tent and gets past everyone? And that is ok with you? Really?

And the assumption they have invested too much to be stopped now.. back up Orascom invested and still owns the equipment. They will simply take back the roof top units that they like to call antennas and go home., it is not like the first batch of equipment was new in a box, it can be reused again.

And the thought its business as usual? Skeleton staff and now they recall some staff ? Come on.. All this smacks in the face of logic..

 

[TorontoColin]

By legal way around it I mean they need to work within the laws to make themselves compliant. Alternatively, the Conservatives could attempt to change the laws to allow Wind to operate.

I'm fine with the court's ruling, they applied the law to this case fairly, as far as I'm concerned. However, I'm also fine with parliament changing the law to allow Wind to operate. If they feel the old law is archaic and unnecessary, and that changing it is in the best interests of this country, then that's what they should do.

Orascom cannot simply reclaim Globalive's equipment, that's not the way indirect equity works. And as they cannot really be bought by the Big Three under the terms of the spectrum auction, more likely is that the government buys them out and Wind temporarily becomes a Crown corporation, until the government can resell them. It's not a great analogy, but look at what happened to the Phoenix Coyotes in the NHL. However, all of this is much less likely than them simply finding a way for Globalive to survive.

Believe me, they're running at full staff. Their call centres are overloaded (which they've acknowledged) but that's because of new subs, not staff cutbacks, and it takes time to train new call centre staff. Apparently they're not thrilled with the quality they're getting from the Egypt call centre, so they're trying to add more in-house staff, but it takes more time to hire and train those, unlike contracted call centres which in theory have experienced staff hired and ready.

 

[Rockjock]

Work within the laws to become compliant? Were they not supposed to be compliant from the beginning? Did the CRTC tell them several times they were not compliant? This is not just about wireless, the rules can not be bent at a whim? And I have it from people in wind that wind is running on a skeleton staff, but the fact that they are swamped NOW does not explain why the call centers were outsourced months ago. Indirect equity? Orascom owns the equipment. Orascom bought the equipment, Orascom shipped the equipment and Orascom paid to have the equipment installed. .. So yes Orascom owns it. As far as being bought by the big 3.. That is a grey area while they can not go to Globalive and buy it from them.. it can be bought from the creditor. See that way you can go around the law and get it. hey! its good enough for Wind as you say. Now why would the government buy Wind? I mean there are provisions in place if you do not comply. You would have the government run wind until they sell it? Interesting idea.. flawed but interesting.

What I have to ask is.. you seem to agree that Wind broke the rules and you want someone to bail them out. Why is this?