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Discussion Starter #1
Can anyone please help with Yamaha 6063 (567) settings (WAF on the line)!

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Hi all,

I've just finished installing my new system, including in-wall speaker wiring that included me busting through the ceiling from the attic (big hit to the WAF - you'll see how this comes into play in a second)!

System is:

TV: Toshiba 47ZV650U Regza

AVR: Yamaha HTR-6063 (RXV567)

BRP: Sony BDP-S570

PVR: Bell express-Vu 9241

Speakers:
Front: Paradigm Cinema 70 v2.0
Centre: Paradigm Cinema CC v2.0
L & R Surround: Paradigm Cinema 70 v2.0
L & R Back: Speakercraft MT-Two in-wall
Sub: Paradigm PDR8 v.3

Have run YPAO and saved.

Now - The critical moment is near. I simply MUST play a movie and blow away my wife. It would be a dark day if it was disappointing and I got "that's what all the fuss and mess was for?" Especially having busted a stucco ceiling (which are a bugger to fix)!

The sources I have on hand and what it says on the back of the boxes are as follows:

Blu-Ray:
_______
Transformers: Dolby True HD, Dolby Digital
Transformers 2: Dolby Digital, dts-HD
T2: 5.1 Dolby Digital EX, dts-HD 6.1, THX
Book of Eli: dts-HD 5.1, Dolby Surround 5.1 (DVD version)

DVD:
__________
Quantum of Solace (DVD)olby Digital 5.1, dts 5.1


So here's where I am confused.

Are MOVIE, MUSIC, SUR. DECODE, and STRAIGHT mutually exclusive?
(I'm going to ignore PURE DIRECT and ENHANCER for now for simplicity)

The wording in the manual implies that the various SUR. DECODE modes are for "turning 2-ch source into surround" but I'm not sure about this. Also, they seem to be older decoders - Dolby Pro-logic for example - is that an accurate observation? In short - when does one use these? Do you have to pick the one that matches what it says on the disc?

How do you playback "the best available on the disc"? the way the maker of the disc intended. Is this what STRAIGHT is for? How does it know what decoding to use.
For example, Transformers: has Dolby True HD, Dolby Digital. I assume Dolby True HD is the better - how do I select / playback this? Can I / should I layer a MOVIE mode (like Sci-Fi) on top of this?

Example 2: T2 has 5.1 Dolby Digital EX, dts-HD 6.1. How do I use the one I want? Is it as simple as selecting the one I want to use on the blu-Ray player and setting the Yamaha to STRAIGHT? Again, Can I / should I layer a MOVIE mode (like Sci-Fi) on top of this?

The "Extended Surround" setting - seems like it would have quite an effect - since most source stuff is still 5.1 not 7.1, is this correct? What is the reccommended setting? I'm thinking "Auto" or "EX/ES"?

Which movie and even scene would you recommend, and with what settings?

Final questions:

Should I bother with Virtual CINEMA DSP 3D mode?
When is it appropriate to use ENHANCER? For MP3's for example?


THANKS SO MUCH FOR READING AND FOR ANY HELP,

Bill
 

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When listening to a True DD5.1, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-MA source, I prefer to listen to those without any additional processing by the AVR. Some people who have 7.1 channel systems prefer to add the "EX" processing to these sources to add in the rear channels (if the AVR allows this for these sources - the final decision is yours.

When listening to DD2.0 (Or PCM) "TV" sources, you can typically use DPLIIEX or similar to take advantage of all 7.1 speakers.

Some people like to listen to music in 2 channel stereo, in which case you can use stereo or "straight", but some people prefer to listen using say DPLII Music, or 5/7 Channel "stereo". Some others like one of the DSPs. Feel free to experiment until you hear what you prefer - for music there is no "right answer" and different sources may sound different with different DSPs.

Useful post for those new to the forum - FAQs, Search Tips, Optimization, etc:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=57741
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks 57, much appreciated.

I checked out your setup too - very nice. I like the old-school VCR, casette, turntable...then I thought "what, no reel-to-reel" ;):D

Thanks again,

bILL
 

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Thanks. Sold my Akai GX630D Reel to Reel tape deck a few years back. Didn't use it much and there wasn't the room in my "stack". I do still have the LD player though. The only item I have a little regret in selling was my Empire 598 Troubador Turntable - a work of art, although my Dual that replaced it is no slouch.

Let's hope others have some comments regarding the modes questions in your OP.
 

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Billavista - this may be outside the box thinking...however...depending on your room setup...you may want to try hooking up Presence speakers.

I find with Yamaha Receivers you get far more out of front presence speakers than back surrounds...but that's just me.

I know you have in-wall speakers...I'm just saying you may want to experiment at some point...and what you'll find is they really expand your soundstage...especially in movies...or action TV.
 

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BillaVista, if you're trying to impress your wife, make sure you play a movie that she'll like. A story driven flick like Star Trek may be a better choice than totally effects-driven drivel like Transformers. You know her tastes better than I do, of course, but seeing Lindsay bent over in short shorts is typically less exciting for them than it is for us.

As far as soundfield choices go, "Straight" will feed back whatever tracks are available - 2, 5.1 or 7.1 channel. As stated above, enabling PLIIx will build surround back channels from 5.1 sources.
 

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OK - so I've been reading and listening and experimenting and I've run into a problem.

For much of my source material (anything less than Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD Master Audio, and sometimes even them) the listening is less than impressive. Just sort of weak, dull, uninspiring.

BUT

When I choose one of the Yamaha Cinema DSP modes (like Movie:Spectacle or Movie:Sci-Fi) the results are quite good - much more impressive and immersive.

Maybe due to my speakers, speaker placement, room acoustics, whatever - it just works.

That's great, but it complicates things, as it is much easier to understand what's going on if just using "straight".

My confusion is this:

According to the manual P. 67 "Configuring input sources (Input menu) - Decoder Mode" The settings are:



It seems to me, this is where you tell the AVR how to decode what the Blu-Ray sends it, and it seems "Auto" would be the right/normal choice unless for some reason you have a problem, in which case you can "force" "DTS" if you need to.

No problem so far.

Moving on to P. 46. DSP Category SUR DEC (surround decode), it gives the following options:



Now, I *think* these are only applicable if picking one directly from the SUR DECODE button. In other words, these have no effect unless you select one by cycling through them with the SUR DECODE button (which you would only do for a 2-ch input source).

Furthermore, I believe this is exactly the same thing as described on P.75. "Parameters useable in surround decoder, Decode type"



continued...
 

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Assuming my deductions so far are correct, no problem, but here's where it gets confusing:

P. 51 shows the “Configuring settings specific to an individual input source (Option Menu), Extended Surround”



I had thought this was a universal setting (at least universal for all HDMI inputs, which is all I am worried about) that basically told the AVR “If you get a 5.1 signal, here’s the method to turn it into 6.1 or 7.1

What I don’t understand is the layering or “order of operations.” For example, say I’, playing a BD with Dolby TrueHD 5.1 – is this decoded according to Dolby TrueHD 5.1 and THEN run through the option selected here before being sent to the speakers? What about a disc in DTS HD Master Audio 5.1 – would this be decoded in accordance with DTS HD Master Audio 5.1, and then potentially run through Dolby PLIIx Movie (if that’s the setting chosen in accordance with p.51). And if so, that means I would have to select “off” here if I want to hear “pure” DTS HD Master Audio 5.1? This page 51 setting doesn’t seem to be tied to a DSP Mode, so I assume it applies even if using DSP: STRAIGHT??

And then I get really confused because, according to P. 74 “Setting sound program parameters (Sound Program menu), Cinema DSP parameters, Decode Type” there are the following choices:



With footnote:



Which seems to imply, that if I select a DSP Movie (like, say, Sci-Fi), it is using the selection made here (i.e. all DSP Movie selection will use one of these).

But how does that relate to the input source? If I have a DTS HD Master Audio 5.1 disc playing and select DSP Movie: Sci-fi, does it decode according to DTS HD Master Audio 5.1 and THEN apply, say, Dolby PLIIx Movie. Or, if I select DSP Movie: Sci-fi, does it not decode according to DTS HD Master Audio 5.1?

continued...
 

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This is further confused by the following, from Yamaha’s website, that says:



Where, you will notice, the info isn’t the same as the options given on page 74 of the manual.

What is going on here? I am so confused!

Basically, what are the order of operations, what are the layering methods? What happens if you have a disc with encoding that differs from the options on P.74, but choose to play it using a CinemaDSP mode?

Please help!

Bill
 

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1. I'm pretty sure that the settings are not global, but are remembered separately for each input. This can come in handy if you've got an input for example that you listen to only for music where you can select PLIIxMusic, or 7Ch Stereo, or one of the DSPs. I have done this for example for a BD player or a second DVD/CD player where a second connection from the single unit, or a second connection from the second unit is used only to listen to music.

2. I'm pretty sure that if you select PLIIxMovie, that the following happens:

a) A DD2.0 source will be decoded and matrixed into 7.1 surround sound.

b) A DD5.1 source will be decoded into the original DD5.1 plus the rears will be "matrixed" from the surrounds.

c) A Dolby TrueHD and/or DTS-MA may or may not have the rears matrixed from the original 5.1 audio - AVRs differ in how these are handled and someone familiar with your Yamaha or a similar one would need to comment, but you'd be able to tell usually from listening to the audio and also looking at the front display where it should say something like TrueHDx, the x indicating the "added" channels. This assumes 5.1 original channels - some (rare) TrueHD and DTS-MA is available in 6.1 and 7.1.

When I looked at the picture of the front of the AVR, it showed the incoming signal on the left and the outgoing signal in graphical format showing the active speakers on the right of the display. You can also press the "menu/input" (or similar) button to display on the OSD the exact incoming signal. Also, usually when the signal changes, the incoming signal will scroll across the AVR's display for a couple of seconds.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
More thoughts:


The initial "decoding" also includes the assignment of channels, correct? As in what gets sent where? And, depending on the decoding (DD True HD7.1 vs Dolby Digital EX, for example), whether the channel assignments are all discreet, or there is matrixing involved, correct?

And, since the DSP comes next, it seems it might be possible to be counter-productive - for example, if you had a movie with DD True HD7.1, it would have 7 discreet channels, but you could also add a Cinema DSP mode, that, according to the manual would use Dolby PLIIx or Neo:6 Cinema, depending on the setting you make, which matrixes two discreet back channels from the surround channels.


(and confusingly, according to the Yamaha website could use Dolby Pro Logic IIx, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, DTS Digital Surround, DTS-ES (DTS-ES Matrix 6.1 and DTS-ES Discrete 6.1), DTS Neo:6 and DTS 96/24 - but it doesn't say how each is chosen)

And, in this scenario, I have no idea what the setting for "Extended surround" (p. 51) does, if anything?

This is the simplest example, it gets more confusing if you have a 5.1 soundtrack on the disc. Say it's DTS Digital or Dolby Digital - that means it's got discreet 5.1 channels.

OK, so it seems the first setting that would come into play would be what you set for "Extended surround" (p. 51) - say Dolby PLIIX. This seeting is per input, so is set for all blu-ray discs, for example. I assume that, however, if you select "DSP Straight" that this is bypassed and you just get the 5.1 discreet channels (no backs) - but I'm not 100% sure.

So let's say you have your DTS Digital soundtrack, and "extended surround" set to Dolby PLIIX, and then choose Cinema DSP - Movie:Standard - what happens then?

I guess what I'm really after is a list of "procedures" or "rules of thumb" for settings to make, depending on what the soundtrack on the disc is. something that might look like:

Use DSP “straight” for:

• Dolby TrueHD , Discrete, 7.1, lossless, HD [DTS HD Master Audio]
• Dolby Digital Plus Discrete, 7.1 [DTS HD High Resolution]

Use preferred Cinema DSP (e.g. Sci-Fi or Spectacle) for:

• DTS ES Discrete, Discrete, 6.1, (rare)
• Dolby Digital EX Hybrid discrete & Matrix, “6.1”, single “back” channel (weather you have 2 back speakers or 1), this back channel is matrixed from the discrete surround channels. [DTS ES]
• Dolby Digital Discrete, 5.1, [DTS Digital]

Use SUR DECODE set to PLIIX for
• Dolby Pro Logic IIz Matrix, 7.1 from 5.1 or 9.1 from 7.1, from “height” or “presence” speakers.
• Dolby Pro Logic IIx Advanced Matrix, makes 7.1 from 2 ch, makes 7.1 from discrete 5.1 by matrixing two discrete back channels from the surround channels. Movie, Music, and Game modes
• Dolby Pro Logic II Advanced Matrix, makes 5.1 from 2 ch, Movie and Music modes [DTS Neo:6 Cinema / DTS Neo:6 Music]


I know the answer is often "read the manual carefully" and "listen and choose what you like", but there are 3 problems with that approach:

1) The manual is poorly written and self-contradicting.
2) I don't want to start every movie with 30 mins of experimenting with settings and modes - I'd like a plan with some reasonable assurance that "for this soundtrack type, make these settings" and the result will be near optimal - especially for the other faily members to use
3) I admit I have a psychological issue if I don't understand things thoroughly - as in, I'll be watching the movie and constantly thinking "this is good - but could it be better if my settings were different?"

Thanks for the help.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
dm_4u - that's a greta idea, but as you said, unforunatly the most-unmoveable speakers are the surround backs as they are the in-walls.

Oh well, perhaps in the future I'll have to upgrade to a 9.1 AVR....but that's waaay down the road!

Thanks for the help!
 

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nobsplease - That's a good point! Fortunatly, she's a HuGE Transformers fan (love Bumble Bee!).

I plan to do my experimenting and tweaking with a mix of movie types though, as you suggest. I don;t own them all yeat, but I'm thinking:

Rambo (2008) (for .1)

Master and Commander - far side of the world

Ratatouille

Transformer 1 & 2

Quantum of Solace

Star Trek (the new one) (7.1)

and maybe some of the Disney 7.1 titles.
 
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