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Area 51 for Antenna Modelers & Builders (See Post #1)

423518 Views 1327 Replies 63 Participants Last post by  majortom, 
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This thread has been created strictly for Antenna Modelers and Builders who like to live not just on the leading edge but on the bleeding edge of antenna research and development.

Area 51 is for posting and discussion of any computer model of any experimental antenna by Antenna Modelers and Builders

Area 51 is not for casual builders or newcomers to ask questions or look for useable home antennas. Participants here are expected to fairly well "know their stuff".

If an antenna design is shown to be worthwhile for general public consumption we will move it out of Area 51 into the main Antenna Research & Development Forum.

Just remember what the ancient map makers wrote when they had no further info to illustrate: "Beyond here be dragons!"
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Sounds good. Also for beginning modeling questions, there is still this thread :

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=83772

which is also not for casual builders or to look for useable home antennas.
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Does that sound reasonable?
Click to expand...
Sounds as good as any. Autofils and I tried to come up with some sort of logical naming scheme for the GHs and just couldnt do it. Almost gives me a headache thinking about it, heh. :p
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making it a second iteration Koch Curve on at least the longer leg of the element.
Click to expand...
firimari, thats a somewhat perfect example of what belongs in this thread, stuff thats cool (like my quad and octal GHs), yet probably shouldnt be built using techniques yet available to us. (I think I could build the above correctly, but wouldnt recommend others to do so)
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But because of the higher SWR on the lower channels, the net gain chart wont be so flat.

Firimari, since we cant see inside of that plastic middle, I cant be positive the Fracarro P54 is as your model. When I first saw that Fracarro P54, I thought it may be a one wire design with the balun connecting in the middle at the ends of the folded single wire. Kind of like a twisted up folded dipole.
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X-014

I put a 20" X 36", 2 by 4 inch mesh reflector 4 inches behind the X-011 and got a little bit more gain out of the design. 13 dbi versus 12 dbi (or less for the same frequency) for the Fracarro P54.





For a 12 dbi antenna, it has a very wide beamwidth. This 3D beamwidth pattern is at 585mhz, channel 33, the middle of the new UHF band. It also appears to be a fairly forgiving design, spacing-wise. This could be a very cheap and easy antenna to build using electric fence stand-offs that are made for chain link fences. (available at Tractor Supply)



And the NEC file :

CM Experimental Antenna
CM Italian Four Diamond Antenna Design X-014
CM AWG Gauge 6 Copper Wire elements, 2 by 4 inch mesh reflector
CM Reflector to Driven Element distance - 4.0 inches
CE
GW 1 1 0 -0.4188583 0 0 0.41885827 0 0.089
GW 2 11 0 0.41885827 0 0 4.84110236 4.84110236 0.081
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GW 4 7 -0.1968504 0 9.68220472 0 -2.9209055 12.6031102 0.081
GW 5 7 0 -2.9209055 12.6031102 0 0 15.5240157 0.081
GW 6 11 0 -0.4188583 0 0 -4.8411024 4.84110236 0.081
GW 7 11 0 -4.8411024 4.84110236 0.19685039 0 9.68220472 0.081
GW 8 7 0.19685039 0 9.68220472 0 2.92090551 12.6031102 0.081
GW 9 7 0 2.92090551 12.6031102 0 0 15.5240157 0.081
GW 10 11 0 0.41885827 0 0 4.84110236 -4.8411024 0.081
GW 11 11 0 4.84110236 -4.8411024 0.19685039 0 -9.6822047 0.081
GW 12 7 0.19685039 0 -9.6822047 0 -2.9209055 -12.60311 0.081
GW 13 7 0 -2.9209055 -12.60311 0 0 -15.524016 0.081
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GS 0 0 0.0254 ' All in in.
GE 0
EK
LD 5 0 0 0 5.8e7 0
EX 0 1 1 0 1 0
GN -1
FR 0 38 0 0 470 6
RP 0 1 61 1001 90 0 3 6 10000 0
EN

On another note, I suppose it was inevitable, a rock group called Antennas, heh : http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=54660168
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Kind of like a twisted up folded dipole.
Click to expand...
Thinking some more about it, the above models are like twisted loops, which kind of explains the wide beamwidth pattern for its gain. I googled, but couldnt find a radiation pattern for the Fracarro P54. Im not sure if Fracarro is the manufacturer or just a distributor, but they do have interesting designs in their catalog, pretty much all of mlords Italy pictures.
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I am currently trying to cover both the FM Radio and VUHF-LO bands (54 Mhz to 108Mhz) with a single reflectorless hentenna based design, not having much success - VUHF LO alone or FM Radio alone appears to be more possible with a few added ons
Click to expand...
A huge bowtie, ie 3 to 4 foot legs, that used to be very common when I was a kid should do you nicely if you dont want anything too fancy. Bowties have very wide bandwidths.
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I think the NORAD’s are pure genius.
Click to expand...
That and a lot of black magic, heh.

Perhaps you could link me to the use of the optimizer?
Click to expand...
F1 - help > index > optimize, its all in there.
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I googled, but couldnt find a radiation pattern for the Fracarro P54.
Click to expand...
Found it !. Its here http://www.fracarro.com/international/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=97&&Itemid=250

It does have a wide radiation pattern. They changed the model numbering scheme to the "PU" series, heh.
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Results are whisker length = 91.82 inches , whisker angle = 12.44 deg and gap between whiskers 4.22 inches - sounds a tad big but shows some very interesting patterns in the FM Radio band.
Click to expand...
It does sound a bit big and at around almost 3/2 wavelength. The old vhf/fm bowties were around 1/2 wavelength wide (I dont think each whisker was more than 40 to 48 inches IIRC), which is about 69 1/2 inches at channel 6, so each whisker would be half that. The angle IIRC, was around 30 degrees. And a lot of them had a shorter horizontal dipole in the middle of the whiskers, which I believe was 1/4 wavelength of like the highest channel 13.

The max optimized version may be nice, but not practical for the additional gain, heh. Try optimizing from around 1/4 to 3/4 wavelength, the gain difference may not be that significant to the 3/2 wavelength version.

I think there may be pictures of the old vhf-hi bowtie posted somewhere on this forum.

Here ya go, step one on the Alliance Rotor instructions has a drawing of one.
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I may play a bit more to see if I improve the SWR at 54Mhz (9.4) and impedance (33 Ohm). (and add the shorter dipole in the middle) Thanks again
Click to expand...
On a single bowtie, you can change the impedance a lot, hence the SWR, by changing the feedpoint gap. What kind of gain are you getting with it ?
(and add the shorter dipole in the middle)
Click to expand...
Yeah, I would make the center dipole either the top freq youre after or the lowest freq. Then the vee pairs would be at the lowest freq or the highest freq, if you get my drift.

Heres what the head, the feedpoint, on one of those old vhf bowties looked like :


Ill see if I can dig it out again and get some measurements.
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Yeah, firimani and I have. Its all astupidoldmans fault !!! heh, heh. (been saving that one up, heh)
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Did not consider a single bowtie worth naming in a bleeding edge section
Click to expand...
Its still bleeding edge 1940's technology, which is still good, heh. With your above figures, that gives it about a 4.63 net gain on channel 5, which is better than all the other antennas found here http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html, with the exception of Winegard YA-1026 Wideband Yagi for VHF 2-6 and Channel Master 3671B VHF/UHF combo. And youre not done tweaking yet !

Back view picture of the head I have :


Top view picture:


The feedpoint gap is 1 24/64 inches (1 3/8 inches). The forward swept angle is 100 degrees total on the top view picture. The looking at the back view, the spread angle is about 45 degrees total. And thats a 3/4 inch square boom piece.

We had the typical double bay version of the vhf-bowtie when I was a kid and had no trouble pulling in stations that were 80 miles away consistantly and relatively snow free with the antenna only mounted about 20 ft high.

One of the amazing things about the bowtie is, from the link holl_ands found, is that the bowtie was patented in 1898, and has been "discovered" again at least few times since then, heh.
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X-034

I also found that I really shouldn't include the F/B ratio in the optimizer, it just skews things so that it won't pay attention to the things that matter, which are minimizing SWR while maximizing Gain.
Click to expand...
I agree, even more so in my case where I welcome less F/B ratio to pick up channels from the backside. Ive always been puzzled why antenna manufacturers think high F/B ratios are some kind of a selling point, heh. On the otherhand, they all make a big point on the box that their antennas are HDTV ready, heh. They need to get really creative and say that their antenna cures headaches and anxiety. (from not paying for high cable and satellite fees, heh)

Raw Gain:

SWR:

3D radiation pattern at 572mhz:
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is that the x-32 made out of 2x1 mesh?
Click to expand...
Nope, common 2 by 4 inch mesh.

Horizontal 2D pattern:


Vertical 2D pattern:


And the NEC file:
http://www.wuala.com/300ohm/Documents/x034_2by4meshReflector.nec
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Still Running some crazy, ill-advised experiments on the Fractal antennas:
Click to expand...
Looking better than ever. Hows your build of it coming ? Post some pics, it should look pretty. :p

Yeah, any more than 2 iterations, as a practical matter, would require building the antenna on a pcb board.
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would a side by side work better than one over the other for narrowing the vertical beam-width?
Click to expand...
Nope, and without being really really careful, you could inadvertantly split the main lobe into two narrower side ones, with no gain at dead ahead at all. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html
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I don't know what's up with the dip at channel 48.
Click to expand...
Nothing really. Thats typical of what occurs on the GH at the breakup at the high end frequencies of its bandwidth. Also since the SWR dips at the same time, the net gain curve is smoother.

A prerequisite to building a 2nd or more iteration fractal antenna should be to have training in the Japanese fine art of origami, heh.

For some odd reason, I seem have a copy of "Fractal Programming in C" by Roger T. Stevens 1989, in front of me. The example programs are on 5 1/4 inch floppy, MS/PCDos format (unopened). If you think some may be useful, Ill see if the disk still reads once I dig thru my collection of old hardware crap, heh.
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What ? No Peano, Hilbert, Sierpinski, Dragon, Phoenix curves, not to mention the Mandelbrot set ? Heh, heh.

Yeah, theyre basically only practical for cell phone/PDA type antennas printed on some kind of pcb.

That Italian Job antenna, with its nice wide front pattern, may make a nice wifi antenna for my use once I scale it for 2.4 GHz. Of course, I got to find a cheap source for the cable/connectors. They seem to want a fortune for a measly 25 foot piece, heh.
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That doesnt look bad either. Im wondering if I use the same technique on the Italian Job, that it will be even better still, ie wide beam, high gain.

My biggest problem is finding cheap coax and connectors for it. It goes totally against my grain and principles to spend $50 to $100 for a measley 25 ft piece, or $10+ for a connector : http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833998039
If I did that, I would be kicking myself in the butt for a long time, heh.

Its pretty obvious that a lot of those Youtube wifi antennas havent been modeled.
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