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  Topic Review (Newest First)
2010-09-08 07:47 PM
outinthornhill As noted previously, this is where City Fido and chat-r differ. chat-r users' home-zone is whatever chat-r zone they happen to be in when they make the call. They can use their phones in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto, Ottawa and, after Sept 16, Montreal the same is if they are at home.
2010-09-08 04:31 PM
17671 outside your calling area, can incurr a new charge called "out of zone" for zone based pricing such as City Fido and Urban Fido.

This means if i am from toronto, and visit vancouver, a local call to a local number will incurr a out of zone charge. unless there is some kind of "add on" by yout wisp.
2010-08-23 07:10 PM
57 Personal comments edited from several posts. Please keep it civil people. If you have a problem with a post, use the report post icon, near the bottom left of each post and let the Mods deal with things. Thanks.
2010-08-23 06:40 PM
17671
Quote:
Originally Posted by outinthornhill View Post
If you have a Wind or chat-r phone based in Toronto, for example, and travel to Vancouver, you can call anywhere in BC without incurring extra charges. A call home to Toronto may or may not be charged, depending on whether your plan includes Canada-wide calling. Likewise a Vancouver visitor to Toronto can call anywhere in Ontario as long as the call originates in the Toronto "zone".
Zone Based Calling also means this. A CITY FIDO Vancouver Customer who travells to Toronto to visit a Relative. He makes a Local Call to a Toronto Number, but has to pay an "OUT OF ZONE" rate, yes even if he is LOCAL to the calling area. This type of zone calling likely does not exist in usa or in europe, but it sure does exist in Canada, Fido uses Zones, once your outside your Zone, a local call will have an added surcharge to it. But the tradeoff benefit is that you will get an extremely generous amount of airtime if you are within your Zone.

Not sure who else offers Zone based local calling areas, that operate in a similar manner, but I DO know Zone based Data rates is now exists too. Go Figure!

Its Paolo not Paulo
2010-08-23 05:40 PM
apn James, no offence, but I think we may be equally confused here. I've PMed you to prevent further polluting this thread.
2010-08-23 12:02 PM
JamesK ^^^^
You seem to be mixing up some stuff. You say you're connected to the Toronto server. I can only assume you're some distance from Toronto, so that calls to there are long distance. However, you can also get IP based local phone service from Rogers (as I do) and others. I don't see anything in your posts to indicate where you are and your bits & pieces of info make it difficult to understand your situation. If so, you'd be using IP for the long distanance portion of the call and then terminate on the distant POTS. This is the way all IP based long distance providers work. They use IP to where it's a local call and go POTS the rest of the way. I've seen some that even provide you with a local number at the distant end, so people can also call you for a local call. That "long distance" B.S. might also include call quality issues, if you travel over the public internet. While IP phones generally work well, there will always be call quality issues over the public internet, because you have no way to control how your data is handled. On the other hand, with internal IP networks, such as Rogers uses for home phone, it's very easy to implement quality of service for voice calls. In fact their equipment is likely configured to give priority to voice over regular internet traffic. I have set up several VoIP networks, in businesses, to do just that. However, once you hit the internet, you lose all such control over priortiy and other QoS issues, such as latency.

Bottom line, you can get cheap long distance over the public internet, but don't bet on getting the same quality of service as you would over a dedicated or managed network (TDM or IP).

BTW, IIRC, GSM runs 12.2 Kb/s but I don't believe it's G.729A. It uses something called Enhanced Full Rate (EFR) codecs.
2010-08-23 11:29 AM
apn
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesK View Post
I assume you're using an IP based long distance service, which may have quality of service issues, if it uses the public IP network.

Also, G.711 is the full 64 Kb/s. You're more likely using G.729A, which is 8 Kb/s. While voice quality can be good, it is noticably inferior to G.711.
Bad assumption. My service is IP between me and the Toronto server, then it spills out onto the same PSTN you're using.

Also, since my ATA is setup to force G.711 (not G.729 ala GSM), I enjoy the full 64Kbps experience, albeit at a fraction of the price, and with none of the "long-distance" charges
2010-08-23 10:57 AM
outinthornhill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paolo View Post
another important point, is with the introduction of ZONE Based cell plans, that if i have a toronto number and go to vancouver and call a local call, I will still incurr a charge for being "out of zone" because I am making a local call outside my unlimited calling zone. make sense?
If you have a Wind or chat-r phone based in Toronto, for example, and travel to Vancouver, you can call anywhere in BC without incurring extra charges. A call home to Toronto may or may not be charged, depending on whether your plan includes Canada-wide calling. Likewise a Vancouver visitor to Toronto can call anywhere in Ontario as long as the call originates in the Toronto "zone".
2010-08-23 07:58 AM
JamesK
Quote:
I do pay the same amount for local and in-country "long distance" calls (i.e. zero premium), and thanks to exclusive use of G711, I also enjoy the same "toll-grade" 64Kbps connection as you.
I assume you're using an IP based long distance service, which may have quality of service issues, if it uses the public IP network.

Also, G.711 is the full 64 Kb/s. You're more likely using G.729A, which is 8 Kb/s. While voice quality can be good, it is noticably inferior to G.711.
2010-08-23 07:51 AM
JamesK
Quote:
So, in Canada, "long distance" does not necessarily have anything to do with "long", or anything to do with "distance" anymore.
It's been that way for a very long time. Back when I was a kid and Bell was the only phone company, it was possible to pay extra for a larger local calling area. I grew up in Oakville Ont. and back then it was long distance to call Toronto or even what it now Mississauga. Some people would pay extra to be able to make toll free calls to Toronto, but people in Toronto still had to pay LD charges to call them. Businesses could often make other arrangements to suit their business needs.
2010-08-23 07:45 AM
JamesK
Quote:
I don't work for them, so I can't know for sure
I've worked in telecom for much of the past 38 years, so I have hands on experience with this.

Quote:
I'm almost certain they'd've upgraded to IP for internal transfers long ago. (I'm not talking switches like in the CO and such. But long haul transfer connecting the CO's for making those calls - using the same backbones as their internet traffic, and in the case of rogers, TV)
You'll find plenty of the old time division multiplex network around. In fact, IP is often carried over it. Also, I already knew about Wind, as I was working on their network last fall. However, companies like Bell and Rogers have a lot of existing plant that would have to be torn out and replaced for an all IP network. There are also some issues with IP, such as quality of service. With the TDM network, you get a dedicated circuit, with constant bandwidth that's used for nothing else, other than your traffic. This produces the best performance for voice and video. Also, I expect the cell networks to eventually go all IP, as LTE & 4G phones will be voice over IP. Currently, however, GSM and CDMA (2G) networks, while using packets, do not use IP to the phone.
2010-08-23 07:11 AM
apn Sorry JamesK, but when you use the term "long distance rate" that in itself is the surcharged, jacked-up rate, unless it's the same rate you get for local calls. Your $0.07/min also happens to be 14 times, or a 1,300% premium over what I pay.

I do pay the same amount for local and in-country "long distance" calls (i.e. zero premium), and thanks to exclusive use of G711, I also enjoy the same "toll-grade" 64Kbps connection as you.

I understand the telephone service model of the old days, but the equation seems to have shifted with declining LD rates. I see more telcos offering basic service for ~$35/mo then fleecing customers with DTMF charges (Bell), $7 for CallerID, more $ for voice-mail etc. ad infinitum. Heck, with an LD package, I was paying Rogers ~$75/mo before I threw in the towel.

The same transition is happening in the wireless space, albeit more slowly. The rest of the world is far ahead of Canada, but you can already see in this country the wireless operators are focusing on data to save their lucrative profit schemes.
2010-08-23 05:32 AM
17671 another important point, is with the introduction of ZONE Based cell plans, that if i have a toronto number and go to vancouver and call a local call, I will still incurr a charge for being "out of zone" because I am making a local call outside my unlimited calling zone. make sense?
2010-08-23 02:43 AM
cfraser To further muddy the waters, with a very specific example of more what is and isn't LD BS:

I have a 7/11 cell phone, which I registered in Pickering, Ontario where I live (actually, it's to the 416/905/etc. area codes and that's what matters). If I fly to Vancouver and call home using that cell phone, it is NOT long distance. That's because I'm calling the phone's "home" area code, and anything in those area codes is never LD from Canada, no matter where I call from.

Another example of Bell/Canadian ridiculousness: it is LD for me to call less than 10km away to Whitby, same area code.

So, in Canada, "long distance" does not necessarily have anything to do with "long", or anything to do with "distance" anymore. Once it made sense, at least technically. Maybe it still does, but the implementation and pricing scheme make a mockery of any "facts".
2010-08-22 11:44 PM
recneps77
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesK View Post
Are you certain about that? Last time I looked, the main phone network (Bell etc.) was still TDM. That's 64K b/s over DS1, DS3, SONET etc. Rogers runs VoIP from the user to their CO. The newer cell companies, such as Wind run IP to the cell site, but IIRC, still use TDM switching for call handling. I expect the old cell companies would have switched to similar.
I don't work for them, so I can't know for sure
But that's what I've heard and makes logical sense, given the model for robelus, in which 1000% profit is better than 100% profit. I'm almost certain they'd've upgraded to IP for internal transfers long ago. (I'm not talking switches like in the CO and such. But long haul transfer connecting the CO's for making those calls - using the same backbones as their internet traffic, and in the case of rogers, TV)
This would better enable them to charge the same money (or more), with 1/10th or 1/100th the operating cost -- keeping in line with all other initiatives they offer us.


The one I do know for sure is Wind, whom advertises all-IP network as one of their features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonsare View Post
wow you guys are FAST! haha thanks!

but i think i still might have some misunderstandings.
*1. Texting and data will still be charged the standard rate as long as i am still in canada.

Yes, provided you do not roam to another network (e.g. from rogers to bell, bell to telus, wind to rogers, etc.

*2. Not all calls from a 416 cell phone to a 905 number is Local.

Correct (on robelus). If you are in an area that's long distance to the 905 area you're calling (say if you had a bell line there), you'll be charged long distance. If you are (physically, with your cell) local to the number you are calling, it will be a local call, regardless of your cell phone number's home area code.
905 covers a huge area, and even within 905 you can still incur long distance.
E.g. even from whitby to pickering, which is about 17km, they charge long distance. It's still 905 for both areas, though. (then of course there are far longer distances where you'd be charged. E.g. hamilton to clarington)

*3. if i text from pearson airport, to a 416 number cell phone;
a) in markham will be LD
b) in toronto will be Local.

A text is a text within Canada (thankfully).
But if you were in pearson and called someone in markham, it would be LD.
If you called someone in TO, it might be local. Depends where in TO.
I'm not sure of the cutoffs for regions. I'm not familiar with the calling regions of 416 as I live in 905 and know it's LD to call 416 from a bell phone, regardless

*4. If i am out of my local area (ie. Niagara falls):
a) and i call a niagara falls number, it is considered local. because i am calling a local number.

Yes

*b) and a niagara falls number calls me, we will BOTH be charged LD, since they are calling a markham number.

No, but possibly yes. They will be charged LD as it's like they're calling markham, though you might be charged local. It depends on the policies of your carrier.
I would assume yes/yes as they love to squeeze money out of us anyway
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