Microsoft Surface RT Pre-Order is on line - Page 4 - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

post #46 of 102 (permalink) Old 2012-10-17, 04:54 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,130
I don't think the device is bad either. It's just priced a bit too high, so be it.

I do not agree with this comment, based on my experience with Windows8.

"However, at the moment at least, the Surface is way behind iOS (and Android) in terms of media consumption."

Today Windows8 (and thus RT) has Xbox Music, Xbox Video, Netflix (if you search for it) A couple of very good 3rd party DLNA clients and xbox games. (the indy games are paltry, i'll give you that) There is clearly lots of content, and it hasn't even launched yet!

Hugh, Windows Media Player is not coming to Windows RT via download. It is a legacy desktop app. There is Xbox music and Video to take its place. The only legacy desktop apps allowed on RT are the ones that come with it, basically Office and that's it!
j0dest3r is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #47 of 102 (permalink) Old 2012-10-17, 05:16 PM
Member #1
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 47,716
Okay, the website is worded poorly

Under "Windows RT also includes some different features:" they don't mention that Media playing software is included but they do say that WMP and WMC are NOT included in RT.

Then they say

Quote:
Although you can install apps directly from the Windows Store, you can't install apps on the desktop on Windows RT.
Which doesn't make any sense. Do they really mean to say "Only Windows RT apps which are available from the Windows store can be installed on the Surface. Windows 8 apps cannot be installed on Surface. "

In addition, read this part of the statement again:

"Although you can install apps directly from the Windows Store" which tells the reader that apps purchased on the Windows store can be installed on the surface. Yet, according to Wikipedia the Windows store will have both Windows 8 apps and Windows RT apps?

So which is it?



hugh is offline  
post #48 of 102 (permalink) Old 2012-10-17, 06:05 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,130
Windows 8 Apps and Windows RT Apps are one in the same. As opposed to legacy desktop applications and I am not sure when the 8 and RT got separated but I think it was recent.

Windows8 RT or Windows RT are still both Windows 8 without desktop legacy apps and runs on ARM processors not Intel x32/x64.
Windows8 (core) x32/x64
Windows8 Pro x32/x64

Windows8 x32/64 are the only two that can run legacy desktop applications. Programs on the desktop have never been known as apps and it should stay that way IMHO. Check the comparison chart here.
j0dest3r is offline  
 
post #49 of 102 (permalink) Old 2012-10-17, 06:42 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,998
Quote:
Originally Posted by j0dest3r View Post
Today Windows8 (and thus RT) has Xbox Music, Xbox Video, Netflix (if you search for it) A couple of very good 3rd party DLNA clients and xbox games. (the indy games are paltry, i'll give you that) There is clearly lots of content, and it hasn't even launched yet!
That's a great start, but it's hardly competitive with iOS. Even if we assume the Xbox Video library to be as comprehensive as iTunes, we're still missing some popular iOS and/or Android media apps. Off the top of my head, does Windows RT have an app for (or equivalent app to): Crackle, Rdio, Jango, TuneIn, 7digital, Google Currents, Flipboard, Zinio, MLB At Bat, NHL Gamecentre, Slingplayer, Youtube, Kindle, Kobo, Google Reader, IMDb, Flixster, Epicurious, NFB, Vevo, BBC/CNN/CBC/CTV/etc, Rogers Anyplace TV, Bell Mobile TV, Telus Optik TV, or Plex? And this is only for Canada, there are far more media apps that are key to success in the US market. And please don't tell me you can access them in the web browser, because you can do that on iOS and Android and yet people still download the apps en masse.

I'm sure the absence of some of these will be remedied quickly. But others will only come if the device sells well enough to make it worthwhile. For a fresh launch of a new platform, this isn't a bad content library. But they priced themselves directly against the iPad so prospective buyers are going to compare it to the iPad.

Rules of the Forum | DHC Help Desk
DHC now supports Tapatalk for mobile devices!
TorontoColin is offline  
post #50 of 102 (permalink) Old 2012-10-17, 07:21 PM
Member #1
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 47,716
j0dest3r, thanks for the reply.

I understand that RT runs on ARM and I understand that W8 runs on Intel or AMD chips etc but the problem I see evolving in the marketplace is the nomenclature.

So, is the following correct?

Quote:
A Windows App from the Windows Store can run on Windows 8 (32 or 64 bit) or in Windows 8 RT, however, a Windows Program or a Windows legacy desktop application can't run on Windows RT.
Second, you confused me when you said

Quote:
Windows 8 Apps and Windows RT Apps are one in the same
yet you said

Quote:
Programs on the desktop have never been known as apps and it should stay that way IMHO.
This doesn't make sense because if a W8 app is one the same as a RT app then doesn't that make it a Program?

FWIW, I am not trying to be a smartass, I really am lost as to what MS is calling a program and what they are calling an app along with trying to understand the verbiage on their website.



hugh is offline  
post #51 of 102 (permalink) Old 2012-10-17, 07:27 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 127.0.0.1
Posts: 3,370
I think the screwed up naming is because Microsoft didn't (couldn't?) license the name "Metro".

Then we could have "Windows Apps" and "Metro Apps", and we would have oddballs (Office) that are Windows apps that have been recompiled for ARM everything would be clear.
audacity is offline  
post #52 of 102 (permalink) Old 2012-10-17, 09:05 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Dandelion City
Posts: 7,131
Quote:
I really am lost as to what MS is calling a program and what they are calling an app along with trying to understand the verbiage on their website.
Windows desktop applications are usually compiled to the X86 architecture. As such, they need an X86 chip to run (or an emulator but RT doesn't have that.) Compare that to something like a Java program. It will run on any architecture because the Java run time interprets it and only the Java run time is architecture specific. Apps are similar. They can be written in Java or HTML and will run on any hardware that has the run time software to support it (basically Java or IE under Windows 8/RT.)

At 20 I had a good mind. At 40 I had money. At 60 I've lost my mind and my money. Oh, to be 20 again. --Scary
ScaryBob is offline  
post #53 of 102 (permalink) Old 2012-10-17, 09:25 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,998
From what I understand apps from the Microsoft version of the app store will work on Windows RT. Legacy software that has run on past versions of Windows (we've always called these applications or programs, not "apps") will not, unless they are tweaked and re-released. New software built specifically for x86/x64 will not run on Windows RT either, but most apps on the Microsoft store will have RT compatibility.

I suspect it will be like iOS and Android where if the version you are using doesn't work with an app, it won't show up when you search the App Store/Play Store on your device, or it will tell you it won't work. Where this will become super confusing is when people want to download software from a third party website. If you want to run Adobe Digital Editions, for example, it will work on a Surface Pro and other Windows tablets running the x86 or x64 version of Windows 8, but not a Surface or other Windows tablets running Windows RT.

This will be super confusing at first, however I'm sure that anyone who buys a Windows RT tablet not understanding the difference will either promptly return it or will very quickly get used to using the Microsoft store for all their app needs.

Rules of the Forum | DHC Help Desk
DHC now supports Tapatalk for mobile devices!
TorontoColin is offline  
post #54 of 102 (permalink) Old 2012-10-17, 09:41 PM
Member #1
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 47,716
My viewpoint

"App" is nothing more than a contraction of the word "application" which is a abbreviation of "application software." Therefore a software application running on Windows 7, 8 or RT are all "apps."

In the MS world, the word "application" is used interchangeably with the word "program" even though that really isn't correct. We will often say, what programs are you running when we really mean what applications (since technically an application can be comprised of multiple programs).

When Apple created the iPod Touch and iPhone, application software for these devices became popularly known as Apps.

So until the Surface came along software applications that ran on desktop and laptop computers were known as programs or Applications while software applications that ran on tablets were known as Apps.

Now we are blending the two. So what do we call a software application that runs on both Windows RT and Windows 8. Maybe a progapp?



hugh is offline  
post #55 of 102 (permalink) Old 2012-10-17, 11:37 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Dandelion City
Posts: 7,131
When is an app or an App and when is it not?

I agree, it is confusing. It's kind of like someone who's never seen a computer and being told that the thing on the monitor screen is Windows. He says, pointing to the clear glass in the outside wall, "No it ain't, them's windows." We're kind of like that person. Apple came along a co-opted the term app to mean an application that runs on their touchpad interface (phone or tablet.) We're pointing at the Windows desktop and saying, "That's an app too." When MS is talking about apps on the Surface or the Windows 8 interface formerly known as Metro (W8FKAM) (How's that for a rude sounding acronym that isn't), they mean touch pad applications, not desktop applications. Yes, it's confusing as heck. That is unless you never owned a computer and only ever used a smartphone or tablet. Then, an app is an App and you don't have a clue what an application is. In any case, don't blame MS, it's all Apple's fault.

At 20 I had a good mind. At 40 I had money. At 60 I've lost my mind and my money. Oh, to be 20 again. --Scary
ScaryBob is offline  
post #56 of 102 (permalink) Old 2012-10-18, 02:06 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,130
I don't find it confusing at all but I totally get how others could. Windows 8 "modern style" apps formerly known as metro are apps wheras desktop legacy applications or programs are applications. Windows 8 "modern style" apps are the same as Windows RT apps. Windows tech pundits like Paul Thurrott are trying desperately to drive this home but when even Microsoft screws it up from time to time, the chaos and confusion continues.....


I agree with Hugh about the applications being just short for apps so aren't they all applications, that is absolutely correct, however the industry is trying to use these terms apps v.s. applications to differentiate typically light tablet based software from big heady desktop software.

So from my point of view there is no blending there are no Windows 8 Apps and Windows RT apps. They are one in the same, they are both Windows 8 modern style apps and then we have as Windows desktop (legacy) applications.

Does that make sense?
j0dest3r is offline  
post #57 of 102 (permalink) Old 2012-10-18, 02:23 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,130
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorontoColin View Post
That's a great start, but it's hardly competitive with iOS. Even if we assume the Xbox Video library to be as comprehensive as iTunes, we're still missing some popular iOS and/or Android media apps. Off the top of my head, does Windows RT have an app for (or equivalent app to): Crackle, Rdio, Jango, TuneIn, 7digital, Google Currents, Flipboard, Zinio, MLB At Bat, NHL Gamecentre, Slingplayer, Youtube, Kindle, Kobo, Google Reader, IMDb, Flixster, Epicurious, NFB, Vevo, BBC/CNN/CBC/CTV/etc, Rogers Anyplace TV, Bell Mobile TV, Telus Optik TV, or Plex? And this is only for Canada, there are far more media apps that are key to success in the US market. And please don't tell me you can access them in the web browser, because you can do that on iOS and Android and yet people still download the apps en masse.

I'm sure the absence of some of these will be remedied quickly. But others will only come if the device sells well enough to make it worthwhile. For a fresh launch of a new platform, this isn't a bad content library. But they priced themselves directly against the iPad so prospective buyers are going to compare it to the iPad.
You are correct, Windows Store does not have all of those apps you mentioned except Kindle, but Windows 8 hasn't even launched yet. Let's reserve judgement until after it launches. As you say it won't take long until those gaps are closed. I am pretty sure Microsoft is well aware of the "must have" apps and will work with developers to get those done as quickly as possible. Until then, most of what you mention is available in the web browser (see what I did there!)
j0dest3r is offline  
post #58 of 102 (permalink) Old 2012-10-18, 10:15 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Gatineau and Ottawa
Posts: 11,107
Thanks for the explanation but I am totally confused now. Where is that confused smiley ... oh here it is.

This is about as clear as the whole Microsoft NetBEUI thing back in the day.
Jake is offline  
post #59 of 102 (permalink) Old 2012-10-18, 11:26 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,130
All you need to remember is Windows "Apps" run on the Windows 8/RT start screen and you get them from the Windows Store. Windows Desktop (legacy) Applications that you can get from the usual places can only run on Windows8 x86/x64 based systems and not on RT systems.

I think some of you are funnin' with me to make a point!
j0dest3r is offline  
post #60 of 102 (permalink) Old 2012-10-19, 01:51 AM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Dandelion City
Posts: 7,131
We wouldn't be funnin' with you.

To put it another way, an App is an app, an App is an application, an app is an application, an application could be an app or an App, but an app is not an App. Thanks MS, Google and Apple for making that perfectly clear.

As it applies to Windows. An App will run on Windows RT or Windows 8 under the W8FKAM (Metro) interface. Apps will run on either Windows 8 processor (ARM or x86.) Legacy Windows applications will only run on Windows 8, or earlier Windows versions, with x86 processors.

At 20 I had a good mind. At 40 I had money. At 60 I've lost my mind and my money. Oh, to be 20 again. --Scary
ScaryBob is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome