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post #31 of 94 (permalink) Old 2012-07-17, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by TorontoColin View Post
Are you talking about Tomi or Steve Jobs? Because that sounds a lot like Jobs too, but he was still a pretty smart guy.

I disagree with Tomi regarding Symbian, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know his stuff.
Tomi is more like an opinionated and bitter Wozniak, and the stuff he's good at is definitely not marketing and product strategy.
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post #32 of 94 (permalink) Old 2012-07-17, 02:49 PM
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With sub-$100 (outright) Android phones and a rapidly growing demand for smartphone use (even in developing nations) how much longer do you think that's going to last? It's a dying market, in my opinion.
And whatever didn't get "smart" in that segment is being devoured by rock-bottom priced OEMs from China.
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post #33 of 94 (permalink) Old 2012-07-17, 03:29 PM Thread Starter
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Arthur Dent, enough of the character assassination. The industry's leading analyst and Oxford lecturer doesn't require anyone to defend him, nor do I, but you are not helping make whatever point you are trying to make about Nokia's future.

Regarding Maemo, Meego, and Meltemi, they were in active development and were absolutely stable. Windows Phone was/is not. Also TorontoColin the phone on which you have based your Symbian opinion is not at all representative of the latest state with the QT toolkit. I would say what you experienced was like an XP user critiquing Windows 7 SP1 without ever having used it.

How does Windows Phone disappoint Symbian -> Meego users, you ask? Check out this link to a search for the famous "101 Reasons Not To Buy Windows Phone 7.5" list (list of major and minor features and capabilities that Symbian, Meego, iOS, etc. have that WP7.5 does not - it is now up to 121 reasons, BTW):

http://duckduckgo.com/?q=101+Reasons...dows+Phone+7.5

Nevertheless Symbian was not the OS that was going to carry Nokia into the future and I've been clear to state that. The improved Symbian was going to provide an overlap for Meego-based smartphones/featurephones and Meltemi dumbphones. For some reason it seems like some of the writers in this thread can't grok what I've said and keep going on about Symbian not having a future when it clearly did - albeit in an expected ramped-down mode towards Meego.

Also let's be clear that Android is not a dumbphone, nor do dumbphone buyers the world over want such a phone. That is the state of dumbphones in the developing world, in which >=3G networks do not exist or are simply unaffordable. Nokia made great profits in those markets but now Elop has completely erased any such possibility. I imagine one or more of the Chinese dumbphone manufacturers are swooping in these days.

I don't really feel like I have the desire or energy to keep trying to clarify all this and I don't wish to be repetitive so I accept if some people disagree with me but I hold my views as strongly as cast iron about the need for Nokia to get rid of their Microsoft / Elop / Windows Phone as soon as possible.

cheers




Last edited by stampeder; 2012-07-17 at 03:58 PM.
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post #34 of 94 (permalink) Old 2012-07-17, 05:11 PM
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Windows Phone was already out on several devices from other manufacturers, so I'm not sure how you can call it unstable. It has bugs, but so does every OS. Windows Phone was at least a known quantity. Meego was still months away from potential launch. If it had been ready it would have already been on sale.

As for dumbphones, how long do you think countries won't have 3G networks? I'd bet that in two years the ones without 3G will be a small minority. And with or without 3G, when Android devices drop below $50, it will take a huge hit out of the dumbphone market. This is a prime example of the world changing and Nokia needing to stay ahead of the curve.

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post #35 of 94 (permalink) Old 2012-07-17, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by stampeder View Post
I don't really feel like I have the desire or energy to keep trying to clarify all this and I don't wish to be repetitive so I accept if some people disagree with me but I hold my views as strongly as cast iron about the need for Nokia to get rid of their Microsoft / Elop / Windows Phone as soon as possible.

cheers
That is not exactly fair position, because you can never be proven wrong. Symbian, Maemo, Meego, etc. - dead and gone, can't come back, with or without Elop. Arguments of the type "what if something in the past happened one way or another" are generally pointless. Depending on what happens next, Tomi's next volume of blogs will be issued under the title "How Elop Killed Nokia" or "How Nokia Survived Elop's Assassination Attempt".

Since you brought up "character assasination", I tried to refrain from that until now, but, what the hell, since I'm already accused, let me at least be guilty:
Reading his blogs I can't help but think that this guy is losing it. Whatever his glorious past. He is hinting at international conspiracies, started and perpetrated by "American shareholders", who have set out to destroy the world's engineering leader Nokia. Can't be because of financial gains, because they are losing billions in the process, therefore it must be out of envy and spite. Those other smaller "American shareholders" who are not inherently evil, just couldn't feel the magical market potential of the superbly engineered Nokia products (Tomi does feel it), and thus unknowingly helped the evil forces from Wall Street do their dirty deed. They instated their Trojan horse Elop with the help of a handful of traitors, and evil won. But it's never too late for revolution, so, forces of good from all countries, unite! The only thing missing are a few vampires and Tomi will be a teen fiction sensation.

OK, now it feels better! Guilty as charged!
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post #36 of 94 (permalink) Old 2012-07-17, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stampeder
Regarding Maemo, Meego, and Meltemi, they were in active development and were absolutely stable.
Interesting, because my friend who worked on the dev team with Maemo (as I mentioned before) suggested that it was a disaster, and the project had very little forward momentum.

One specific example he gave was the security system. Apparently it was based on some Nokia employee's PhD thesis, and the resulting system was overly complex (and not very practical) and performed poorly. The entire project was way behind schedule, and was getting further behind every quarter.

From a high level, Maemo/Meego sounded a lot like Nokia's "Longhorn project" (before Microsoft re-booted the Windows Longhorn project in 2004).

Anyway, this is someone I know personally with first-hand knowledge telling me that things were not well on this projects, and it was nowhere near production-ready.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stampeder
Windows Phone was/is not.
How is Windows Phone not stable? Can you tell me how to crash a WP7.5 handset? Of course, I'm talking about the OS - its not too hard to make a individual app crash - this happens all the time on my iPad, but most people would consider iOS 5 "stable".

And how can you declare Maemo/Meego and Meltemi "stable" when they have never really been "battle tested" (i.e. seen widespread use in the market and found to have had no stability issues)? Software that has only seen the light on a limited number of handsets (less than %0.01 of the worldwide market) is difficult to call "stable" or "robust" since such claims have not been tested.

Oh, and software that is in active development is rarely stable. For example, right now Windows Phone 7.5 is released would be considered stable, but Windows Phone 8 (beta) is not currently stable because its in active development. If you look at Linux distributions, code that is under active development doesn't get put in the "stable" branch.

When you make such statements, it makes me question your software engineering background.
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post #37 of 94 (permalink) Old 2012-07-17, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by stampeder View Post
Regarding Maemo, Meego, and Meltemi, they were in active development and were absolutely stable. Windows Phone was/is not.

I'm arguably the biggest MSFT critic in this forum, but I'm mostly critical of their unprecendented destruction of shareholder value due to bumbling management, poor strategic execution and inability to innovate.

I'm also critical of bad products, like Zune, Vista and the record smashing quality problems with XBOX360.

What I cannot say, though, is that WP is unstable. Too little and too late, perhaps, but not unstable.

PS: if NOK was a burning platform a year ago, it's a smouldering pile of dung now. The shareowners now need to sell their burnt dung for whatever fertiliser value it has, and try to make their money back elsewhere. Thats what happens when public companes swim too far outside the rope, regardless of the product potential. Product enthusiasts have 0% say in the matter, despite how smart or "right" they are. Sorry. The end.
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post #38 of 94 (permalink) Old 2012-07-17, 07:46 PM
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I still have my Nokia N900 with Maemo on it. I can attest it's stable. The only problem is that the phone itself isn't as powerful as it should have been.

Regarding Windows Phone, Microsoft and Nokia just shot themselves in the foot. While announcing the upcoming release of Windows Phone 8, they also announced that NO UPGRADE PATH WILL BE AVAILABLE to owners of Windows Phone 7 handsets.

And this is while Nokia is STILL selling Windows Phone 7 handsets!

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/...urrent-phones/

Can you imagine the outcry if your iOS or Android device couldn't be upgraded at least a few times? Windows Phone 7 is the first version of the Windows Phone OS, and you're stuck with it!

What's really regrettable is that Nokia makes phones that are so strong, they're as resistant as a brick. But now, they'll soon become real bricks at this rate.
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post #39 of 94 (permalink) Old 2012-07-17, 08:09 PM
 
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That's Nonsense

I have a Nokia 800 with WP 7.5 that I got about a month ago. Before I got it I did my due diligence and knew that I wasn't able to run WP 8 on it when it came out. It is truly a great device - slicker than snail snot and buttery smooth. But unlike Apple, it lacks app volume. And unlike Android, it lacks horsepower. But believe it or not - I'm happy with the choice I made.

People who get smartphones come in two categories: those that like what the phone does now, and those who want to know what it can do in the future. If you're the latter, you've read the press about WP 8 and will wait or go to something else.

So what if there are still WP7 phones for sale? Last time I checked, you still can get an iPhone 3GS.

Do you think that the second WP8 is released, our WP7 sets will self destruct? Or that the apps will immediately be removed?

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post #40 of 94 (permalink) Old 2012-07-18, 03:11 AM Thread Starter
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Thankfully for our readers there are true experts who identify themselves in public, like Tomi Ahonen. Also you can read about me in the OTA FAQ. Honest and open, that's me.

If you love your WP7 phone imagine having a mobile phone that could also do all the 122 (and counting) things that Symbian, Maemo, and Meego phones routinely do... you'd throw that WP thing into a garbage can. That's my central point - switching to the Windows Phone platform was a sudden time-shift to the smartphone stone age. No wonder Nokia's traditional customers are not buying them.

Nokia must get rid of their Microsoft / Elop / Windows Phone now. It is plain as day. That is the future of Nokia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by audacity
Interesting, because my friend who worked on the dev team with Maemo (as I mentioned before) suggested that it was a disaster, and the project had very little forward momentum.
Please get that friend to post here asap as I would love to discuss Maemo.




Last edited by stampeder; 2012-07-18 at 03:28 AM.
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post #41 of 94 (permalink) Old 2012-07-18, 07:20 AM
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What's really frustrating is that Maemo is still the only phone OS that natively supports all of the tools I need to remotely access my servers without the need to root the phone or do anything else that can destabilize the OS. If iOS or Android supported OpenVPN through a simple app install, I would have switched phones a long time ago.

But I can't keep this up. Everything else about the Nokia N900 is slowly becoming outdated for the simple reason that there aren't any updates being released. And the same thing will eventually happen with WP7. Yes the phones will continue to work for a while, but the browser, Flash, and audio/video support will progressively fall behind as their support is dropped. Then there's the new apps being released (and possibly old apps being upgraded) which will refuse to work under WP7.

WP7 is now an Alzheimer phone OS. In time, it will lose its abilities to function along with its identity.
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post #42 of 94 (permalink) Old 2012-07-18, 08:03 AM
 
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Do either of you think that the general public cares one whit that their iPhone 4S or Galaxy 3 can't access remote servers or any other of the neat little things your o/s can do? If vpn was such a priority, iOS and Android would have done them a long time ago. A 21 year old girl cares more about a rhinestone case than she does about vpn, and that's the target audience vendors pander to.

You two are misplacing your anger against a vendor who abandoned a platform that wasn't selling. It doesn't matter that Meego/Maemo/Symbian can run circles around anything else out there if it doesn't sell. The marketplace is littered with seemingly superior products that were abandoned because they simply didn't sell.

Save your ire for the public - they're the ones that killed your beloved o/s.

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post #43 of 94 (permalink) Old 2012-07-18, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by stampeder View Post
If you love your WP7 phone imagine having a mobile phone that could also do all the 122 (and counting) things that Symbian, Maemo, and Meego phones routinely do... you'd throw that WP thing into a garbage can.
This quote is an exhibit A of how an engineer's' philosphy destroys a multibillion corporation.
It is really beyond my comprehension how, after Apple made hundreds of billions of dollars following exactly the opposite direction, and Nokia is in the garbage can because it followed exactly this direction, this is being posted outside of the "Humour" section.
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post #44 of 94 (permalink) Old 2012-07-18, 10:47 AM
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Save your ire for the public - they're the ones that killed your beloved o/s.
"The problem is in front of the keyboard" - favourite sentence of the followers of a certain open source OS for PC.
They still believe in it, though. No surprise they are now wondering why the most comprehensive mobile phone OS got canned.
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post #45 of 94 (permalink) Old 2012-07-18, 02:45 PM Thread Starter
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Facts are Facts

Almost all of the 122 (and counting) things that Windows Phone 7 cannot do in comparison to Symbian, Meego, and Maemo are likewise common, routine things that iOS5 and ICS can do. So, experienced users of the in-house Nokia OSes, the iPhone, and the Galaxy see Lumia as a piece of junk and the market sales numbers prove it. Consumers are avoiding Lumia like the plague.

Symbian, Meego, Maemo, iOS, ICS: good stuff
WP7: not so good

You can't argue with factual market sales numbers and factual lists of smartphone features.



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