Windows Phone 7 hardware not upgradable to Windows Phone 8 (aka Apollo) - Page 2 - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

post #16 of 40 (permalink) Old 2012-06-20, 04:32 PM
OTA Forum Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 24,878
Angry Osborne Effect

Quote:
Originally Posted by audacity
I can see recent Windows Phone purchasers being upset by not having access to WP8.
How about manufacturers too?!!! This is a knee-capping of HTC, but mostly Nokia after all the damage that has already been done by former Microsoft executive Stephen Elop, who will now tell everyone to "wait just a bit longer... wait just a bit longer... it will all work out... trust me." For Nokia this is Elop's second Osborne Effect moment after his infamous "burning platform" speech that started the destruction. Now his own solution is burning too.

So, the lesson for consumers is that WP7 is a dead end and the manufacturer of WP8 makes these kinds of decisions on a whim so you'd better be very suspicious.

The lesson for manufacturers is that if you build WP8 devices your bottom line is of no concern to the software maker.



stampeder is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 40 (permalink) Old 2012-06-20, 05:55 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 127.0.0.1
Posts: 3,370
I'm sure Nokia knew the Windows Phone roadmap - (i.e. Windows Phone 8 and its implications) long before the signed-on to Windows Phone.
audacity is offline  
post #18 of 40 (permalink) Old 2012-06-20, 06:55 PM
OTA Forum Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 24,878
You mean Microsoft has been sitting on this forced-obsolescence plan for awhile? Odd that they only just announced it.



stampeder is offline  
 
post #19 of 40 (permalink) Old 2012-06-21, 02:50 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 626
Quote:
Originally Posted by audacity View Post
Of course, like iPad 1 users are discussing in another thread, Apple iDevices typically don't stay current for more than 24 months. This isn't a good market to be in if you want to buy a device that will last for 3 years and run the current software that is available.
But this is nowhere near comparable. This is more like buying an new iPad today knowing that it won't be upgradeable to iOS 6 in the Fall, less than six months from now. There is a big difference. Progress dictates that not all new features will be available to old hardware even when an update is available because the hardware just isn't capable of supporting the new features but this is going too far.

There is no excuse for this. Microsoft has been developing Windows 8 for at least a couple of years now. They should have known the hardware requirements and worked with their hardware partners to ensure that at a minimum the current hardware could receive an update to the new NT based code base. I'm not saying that NFC or even any kind of multi-tasking needs to work but at the very least they should have ensured that the current hardware would be able to run the new software that would be written using the new native development environment.

Any developer coding a new program or planning a major update to an existing one isn't going to target the now dead end Windows Phone 7.x code base. The number of available apps for 7.x will quickly dry up.
Gino Cerullo is offline  
post #20 of 40 (permalink) Old 2012-06-21, 03:10 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 127.0.0.1
Posts: 3,370
Well, irrespective of how some Lumia 900 customers feel about this move, I'm pretty sure that it's in Microsoft's best interest to do this. Having the same kernel and APIs available across all their devices provides for a very compelling developer story: write to this platform and you can easily deploy your app/game/service to phones, tablets, PCs, and console. I have little doubt in my mind that the successor to the Xbox 360 will be built on this same platform, especially since Dave Cutler is apparently working on it (the next Xbox that is).

For a while now Microsoft has suffered somewhat because they placed too big of a value on backwards compatibility. Sure, backwards compatibility is important, but it's not as important as being able to move forward in meaningful ways.

I look at this and see Microsoft "pulling a Apple".
audacity is offline  
post #21 of 40 (permalink) Old 2012-06-21, 06:50 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,998
I don't see how Microsoft releasing Windows 8 for new devices and Windows 7.8 for older ones is much different from Apple releasing iOS 6 with full features on the new iPad, stripped down for the iPad 2, and not at all for the original iPad.

Maybe for Lumia 800/900 users this is a problem, but for anyone who bought a WP7 device released before that, can they really be surprised by this?

Rules of the Forum | DHC Help Desk
DHC now supports Tapatalk for mobile devices!
TorontoColin is offline  
post #22 of 40 (permalink) Old 2012-06-21, 07:09 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 127.0.0.1
Posts: 3,370
And lets remember how things work on the #1 smartphone platform (i.e. Android). New devices are released and they're behind the curve in the software department on day one.

A friend of mine purchased a Galaxy Note a few months ago and it's running Gingerbread. You know, the version of Android that was released in late 2010 - around the same time as the first WP7 devices were released. And it still hasn't been upgraded to ICS. My money is on Jellybean coming out for my Galaxy Nexus prior to him getting ICS on his Note as a OTA update.

And through all these update issues, Android is winning the Smartphone marketshare war. So I don't see Nokia Lumia 900 phones getting WP7.8 being a significant deal-breaker when it comes to trying to attract new customers to the platform.
audacity is offline  
post #23 of 40 (permalink) Old 2012-06-22, 12:34 PM
OTA Forum Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 24,878
Lumia is now a burning platform

Quote:
Originally Posted by audacity
I don't see Nokia Lumia 900 phones getting WP7.8 being a significant deal-breaker when it comes to trying to attract new customers to the platform.
If you look at it from the manufacturers' perspective, they've invested time, effort, and $$$ to develop a platform that MS has now declared to be "burning" (to use Elop's wording).

For developers of apps, a simple calculus is whether the expense of writing/porting their products to a dead end product is worth it. Given the market numbers we have been seeing, it is clearly not.

Now look at it from the carriers' viewpoint: after all the megabucks spent on marketing Lumia it still does not sell, so this announcement only cripples a crippled platform further.

If you accept that consumers quickly heard about the Symbian OS being a dead end and thus stopped buying Nokia phones worldwide as a reaction, then it logically follows that those same consumers who are so keen at smelling the smoke of a burning platform and shunning it will see that the Lumia line of WP7 phones is now saddled with the reputation of being a dead end too.



stampeder is offline  
post #24 of 40 (permalink) Old 2012-06-22, 01:19 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 127.0.0.1
Posts: 3,370
Quote:
Originally Posted by stampeder
Now look at it from the carriers' viewpoint: after all the megabucks spent on marketing Lumia it still does not sell, so this announcement only cripples a crippled platform further.
Well, AT&T was selling the Lumia phones faster than Nokia could make them, and AT&T made the statement that the "Lumia 900 is exceeding AT&T's expectations". In other words, I'm sure we're talking about millions of Lumia 900 phones, not hundreds of thousands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stampeder
For developers of apps, a simple calculus is whether the expense of writing/porting their products to a dead end product is worth it. Given the market numbers we have been seeing, it is clearly not.
It sounds like you're not a software developer, so let me give go into some detail here about why I think you're wrong.

First, WP7 has a active app ecosystem. There are lots of apps on it. 100,000 of them, apparently. For apps, WP7 is punching well above its market share weight.

Second, "porting" those apps WP7 to WP8 will be very little work to take advantage of some of the new WP8 features, and if app devs do nothing, they will still run on WP8. The .NET framework is a abstraction layer so developers can write their apps and run them on any platform that implements that abstraction layer, and WP8 supports a superset of the API calls that WP7 does - so WP7 apps will always run on WP8 (but the reverse would be sometimes, but not always true - depending on weather the dev uses a WP8-only API call).

Third, the biggest app platform in the world (i.e. Windows) will get developer support. We're talking hundreds of millions (if not over a billion) users use it. Companies rely on it, and lots of developers are familiar with how to develop for it. There aren't many bets you can make in the tech industry that are as sure of a bet as the next version of Windows. The users will be there, and if the users are there the devs will come. Once the devs start writing for Windows 8, it's extremely easy to port to the phone and (presumably) the next console. This was not true for Windows 7 --> Windows Phone 7 or Windows 7 --> Xbox, although I'm sure both using DirectX in the latter case would have helped somewhat.

If I was writing a Windows 8 Metro app, why wouldn't I invest the extra day or so to get it running on Windows Phone form factor? And perhaps another day to get it running on the next-gen Xbox? The last point is speculation, but after reading about the way that Microsoft lining up its APIs, it is clear that this is what they are targeting: write once for the Microsoft "platform" and then bring your software it to all Microsoft products. This is very different from the development efforts that would have been required in the past if you wanted to be on their PC, phone and console.

So, back to your above quoted question to developers: sure, if you're a iPhone app dev you'd be thinking "well, I don't want to spend months re-writing my app from the ground up to go to WP8?", but if you're a Windows 8 dev the question is "do you want to spend a day or so getting your app working on WP8?". Of course you'd do it! You can deal with all these platforms with a (mostly) shared code base so the maintenance efforts wouldn't be significantly more as it would be if you're doing a iPhone --> WP8 move (which would be twice the amount of code to maintain).

There are a lot of Windows developers out there. More Windows developers than there are iOS developers, and these are the people who I think will be doing the calculus and coming to the easy conclusion that it makes sense to do WP8 and/or the next-gen Xbox if they're developing for Windows anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stampeder
If you accept that consumers quickly heard about the Symbian OS being a dead end and thus stopped buying Nokia phones worldwide as a reaction, then it logically follows that those same consumers who are so keen at smelling the smoke of a burning platform and shunning it will see that the Lumia line of WP7 phones is now saddled with the reputation of being a dead end too.
We agree that many people would be affected by this announcement and it will hurt WP7 sales until WP8 is out. That said, my point is that there are so many Android phones that are also dead ends that sell extremely well, because the mass market doesn't think "does this phone get OS updates"? If most people thought in that way, only Nexus devices would sell.
audacity is offline  
post #25 of 40 (permalink) Old 2012-06-22, 01:39 PM
OTA Forum Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 24,878
Quote:
Originally Posted by audacity
It sounds like you're not a software developer, so let me give go into some detail here about why I think you're wrong.
That's a bizarre assumption. I won't take your reply as condescending or patronizing though, just ill informed. Anyone reading the OTA FAQ and then checking me out on Linkedin can find out all about me. I am now bowing out of this thread, having given my own personal opinions clearly and concisely as an industry insider. Are you also in the industry, audacity? If so, how can we find you on Linkedin or elsewhere?



stampeder is offline  
post #26 of 40 (permalink) Old 2012-06-22, 01:54 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 127.0.0.1
Posts: 3,370
Quote:
Originally Posted by stampeder
Are you also in the industry, audacity? If so, how can we find you on Linkedin or elsewhere?
Yes, my background is in software development, and I've been doing it for years - since 1991 when I started writing software for a multi-line BBS in Calgary that I used to run back in the day.

That said, I'm going to decline your offer of posting my personal contact information on this forum.
audacity is offline  
post #27 of 40 (permalink) Old 2012-06-27, 02:24 PM
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino Cerullo View Post
But this is nowhere near comparable. This is more like buying an new iPad today knowing that it won't be upgradeable to iOS 6 in the Fall, less than six months from now. There is a big difference. Progress dictates that not all new features will be available to old hardware even when an update is available because the hardware just isn't capable of supporting the new features but this is going too far.

There is no excuse for this. Microsoft has been developing Windows 8 for at least a couple of years now. They should have known the hardware requirements and worked with their hardware partners to ensure that at a minimum the current hardware could receive an update to the new NT based code base. I'm not saying that NFC or even any kind of multi-tasking needs to work but at the very least they should have ensured that the current hardware would be able to run the new software that would be written using the new native development environment.

Any developer coding a new program or planning a major update to an existing one isn't going to target the now dead end Windows Phone 7.x code base. The number of available apps for 7.x will quickly dry up.
Or like how my girlfriend got a iPhone 4 a month before the 4S (and Siri) came out?

Stop acting like Microsoft is the big bad wolf in this scenario.

Every vendor does this and will continue to do this until time out of mind.

Panasonic TC-P50G10 - Yamaha YSP 2200 - Sony PS3 Slim 250gb - Nintendo Wii - WD TV Live
Spike4881 is offline  
post #28 of 40 (permalink) Old 2012-06-27, 03:55 PM
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 455
but MS is the big bad wolf since they ( and not the manufacturers) out right said no WP7 phones will be able to get WP8. at least with android's some older phones get newer versions of that OS and if not in most cases you can root droids and install the latest version anyway
McPatrick is offline  
post #29 of 40 (permalink) Old 2012-06-27, 04:54 PM
Member #1
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 47,716
Decisions like this are why Microsoft is now 6th in smartphone market share behind Bada! (Marketshare Numbers according to IDC).



hugh is offline  
post #30 of 40 (permalink) Old 2012-06-27, 04:54 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Calgary AB
Posts: 4,200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike4881 View Post
Or like how my girlfriend got a iPhone 4 a month before the 4S (and Siri) came out?

Stop acting like Microsoft is the big bad wolf in this scenario.
Actually, Microsoft is the big bad wolf here. Siri is just one feature of the iPhone 4S. With Windows Phone, a WP8-compatible application will not work at all on WP7.5 handsets. It would be akin to all new apps in the iTunes store not working with the iPhone 4.

I know this decision has pretty much ruled out me wanting a Nokia Lumia 900.
BGY11 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome