CDMA iPhone coming [now its here] - Page 2 - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

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post #16 of 109 (permalink) Old 2010-04-10, 12:44 AM
 
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Not sure if LTE fallback to HSPA. But I know that HSPA is not available in cottage country in Ontario (yet). I guess it depends on what you imply by civilized world ... :-)

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post #17 of 109 (permalink) Old 2010-04-10, 01:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 99semaj View Post
But LTE does fallback to HSPA, doesn't it? HSPA is available just about everywhere in the civilised world today...
Well presumably it would where the carrier is currently HSPA or moving to it. For the ones that are going to leap directly from CDMA to LTE, there would be no HSPA to fall-back on. Just like Bell/Telus have no GSM to fall back on.
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post #18 of 109 (permalink) Old 2010-04-10, 08:56 AM Thread Starter
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Following lawman's arguments, I still think this has legs...

Did any of you guys follow the GSM technology cycle?

The death of GSM was called in ~2000. Yet, HW and SW sales for a vendor I'm familiar with peaked in 2009, yes a full nine years AFTER the world was supposedly going to tear down the multi-billion dollar networks and migrate to UMTS.

Didn't happen, did it? So why would you expect it to happen in the migration from CDMA to LTE (aka Wideband CDMA). You guys do realize that the current infrastructure will be upgraded (HW/SW) rather than be replaced, right?

So let's look at CDMA. While the technology has certainly crested, sales continue to be very strong. In addition to current operators scrambling to upgrade capacity for SMS growth, they're also increasing their Do RevC footprint to improve (smart phone) data capacity before what will be a multi-year migration to LTE.

In addition to current customers, there are new CDMA bids and contracts being signed every month, and R&D is scrambling to keep up with new feature requests.

Let's also put it out there that Bell/Telus didn't deploy HSPA to replace their respective CDMA networks, they did so primarily to get a share of the Intl. roaming revenues that Rogers was hording. IMHO, the iPhone was a secondary benefit.

Finally, against that backdrop;

1. Verizon is the largest operator (by subscribers) in the USA

2. Adding Sprint into the mix and you're looking at a combined ~70% market share.

3. These vendors have collectively spent many billions of dollars to build CDMA networks.

4. Even if the transition from CDMA to LTE is 2x the rate of GSM-UMTS, you're looking at years for a network-wide migration.

5. Verizon wants the iPhone to compete w/ AT&T, and I suspect that Apple wants to sell phones to another 80+ million US customers.

6. Verizon WILL get an LTE iPhone, but they won't wait that long and will push Apple to provide an interim product that works with their current network.

7. Verizon's CDMA network will have a lifespan approaching 5yrs (maybe more) before full deployment of LTE is completed.
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post #19 of 109 (permalink) Old 2010-04-11, 08:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by apn View Post

Let's also put it out there that Bell/Telus didn't deploy HSPA to replace their respective CDMA networks, they did so primarily to get a share of the Intl. roaming revenues that Rogers was hording. IMHO, the iPhone was a secondary benefit.
I find it difficult to believe that international roaming is a major determining factor in going to HSPA, doesn't make sense as an investment. Only US roamers will have the correct phones to make use of the North American HSPA bands, anyone else has to buy a phone here. A good chunk of US are already on CDMA, which didn't need any investment to facilitate their roaming here. So, the gain is very small indeed. Now the technology path to higher speed networks and LTE is admitted as the reason in Bell and Telus's own public financial statements. As publicly-traded corporations, they need to make accurate disclosures - why speculate that the main rationale was roaming traffic? Getting access to a broader range of phone products including iPhone would seem to be a far greater secondary benefit than roaming.
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post #20 of 109 (permalink) Old 2010-04-13, 08:30 AM
 
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+1 on the above. I'd say roaming revenue was the ancillary benefit for Bell and Telus. Getting access to a broader range of handsets, especially smartphones, and equipment at lower prices (due to larger world market, meant more. The different frequencies this is still a problem between NA and the rest of the world but I assume it's easier for manufacturers to tweak the frequencies than develop a CDMA version of a phone for the NA market (using the iPhone as an example).

I could theorize that Bell and Telus wanted out of the "us vs them" CDMA/GSM battle with Rogers. Rogers, in terms of subscribers, is far larger than Bell and Telus. Add Rogers' argument that they operate on the "world standard" (conveniently ignoring that most of NA is on CDMA) and it was starting to hurt. Bell and Telus, with their limited selection of phones, were starting to look like anachronisms while Rogers always had the hot new products first. The first thing Bell and Telus did with the HSPA network was launch the iPhone to prove they could be just as cool as the big guy. Both are proud to flaunt the Nexus1 and Telus is trying to be hipper than Rogers with the Milestone. None of this would have been possible with only CDMA. Witness the phenomenal success of the BB Storm and Storm2.

And what is the second biggest complaint about Wind (after the spotty service)? Lack of a selection of attractive phones (which the N1 could help solve if it weren't so expensive).

Bell and Telus will use HSPA/UTMS for a few years to slow the loss of subscribers to Rogers until LTE technology is ready. That the transition to LTE is easier than from CDMA to HSPA made the decision more obvious.
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post #21 of 109 (permalink) Old 2010-04-13, 01:01 PM
 
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[QUOTE=outinthornhill
Bell and Telus will use HSPA/UTMS for a few years to slow the loss of subscribers to Rogers until LTE technology is ready. That the transition to LTE is easier than from CDMA to HSPA made the decision more obvious.[/QUOTE]

And just like the GSM providers worldwide, 2G GSM and CDMA will be in for quite a transition period until they finally fade away, just like the older analog and 1G digital technologies did. And, yes, while there is a theoretical transition path from CDMA to LTE that is a much bigger and costlier leap than going from HSPA to LTE. The equipment installed by telus/bell for HSPA was designed with an upgrade path to LTE, the old CDMA equipment does not have such a simple path and really requires the installation of a new parallel set of equipment much like telus/bell did to get to HSPA in the first place.

Now, getting back to the original question and avoiding speculation, is there any real evidence that a CDMA iPhone is coming? I've seen no substantiation so far.
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post #22 of 109 (permalink) Old 2010-04-27, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by TorontoColin View Post
Google announced a CDMA N1 a long time ago, likely will start shipping next week.
...and now Google has cancelled the CDMA N1.
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post #23 of 109 (permalink) Old 2010-04-27, 09:05 PM
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while its true LTE may be 4th generation, is it not true that LTE still uses a UMTS radio network?????

I know some people are talking like LTE will REPLACE UMTS? i dont know, and dont think so. I think LTE is an add on to UMTS, just like HSPA was.
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post #24 of 109 (permalink) Old 2010-04-27, 09:19 PM
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They've cancelled the Verizon CDMA N1, a Sprint CDMA N1 is still possible.
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post #25 of 109 (permalink) Old 2010-04-28, 02:44 PM
 
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while its true LTE may be 4th generation, is it not true that LTE still uses a UMTS radio network?????

I know some people are talking like LTE will REPLACE UMTS? i dont know, and dont think so. I think LTE is an add on to UMTS, just like HSPA was.
LTE is really a stepping-stone to true 4G as it isn't 100% compliant with 4G mobile spec's (the internationally accepted ones, anyway). The air interface of LTE is called E-UTRA (evolved UMTS Terrestrial Radio Access Network). So, while it is correct to call it an extension or evolution of UMTS it involves a completely new air interface and different data multiplexing schemes than existing UMTS family. So, no it doesn't use an UMTS radio network, although most recent UMTS systems are designed to be readily upgradeable to LTE.
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post #26 of 109 (permalink) Old 2010-04-29, 03:08 PM
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ok, i gotcha. so umts and e-ultra are very similar, unlike gsm and umts which are not. will that mean a umts handset will see e-utra airwaves?
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post #27 of 109 (permalink) Old 2010-04-30, 02:16 PM
 
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ok, i gotcha. so umts and e-ultra are very similar, unlike gsm and umts which are not. will that mean a umts handset will see e-utra airwaves?
Actually GSM, UMTS and LTE all use different air interfaces so a handset trying to be compatible with all 3 would require 3 different transceiver modes. So, no, they really aren't any more similar between any of GSM/UMTS/LTE other than in a very limited but ultimately not helpful to the end-user way.
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post #28 of 109 (permalink) Old 2010-08-09, 11:06 AM Thread Starter
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I thought this had gone cold until todays news...

Report suggests iPhone will launch on Verizon
By Samuel Axon
August 9, 2010 9:23 a.m. EDT

Quote:
(Mashable) -- Evidence continues to mount to support expectations that Apple's iPhone 4 will finally launch on Verizon this coming January.

The latest: Sources close to Apple's hardware suppliers say that Apple has ordered millions of CDMA chipsets from Qualcomm. CDMA is the wireless technology used by Verizon.

The report comes from TechCrunch contributor Steve Cheney, who says that the chipsets are due in December, implying a January launch for the Verizon device. This follows a rumor from seven months ago that Qualcomm hadlanded a deal to provide Apple with chips.

You might also recall that AT&T dedicated a significant portion of its recent SEC filing to assurances that it would be a-okay without U.S. iPhone exclusivity, a probable sign that the carrier is expecting to lose said exclusivity before the original5-year deal runs its course.

TechCrunch doesn't disclose any details about its sources for this rumor; it describes them only as "sources with knowledge of this entire situation," a reference to the long chain of manufacturers from Apple on down through Qualcomm and other component-makers.

The January release date was supported by an earlier, less-specificreport from Bloomberg about a coming Verizon iPhone.

Somesurveys have predicted that as many as half of Verizon's current customers will abandon their current phones for the iPhone if it becomes available to them.
Perhaps it's time to round up some flaky pastry and a certain black bird for all the naysayers up above...
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post #29 of 109 (permalink) Old 2010-08-09, 03:17 PM
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I'll still wait until it is officially confirmed before I believe it, but I will admit the latest details (including Apple's recent SEC filing) does make it seem much more probable that the US will see another iPhone carrier.

Of course, if Verizon does get the iPhone, I predict it's only a matter of time before T-Mobile gets it as well.
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post #30 of 109 (permalink) Old 2010-08-09, 03:41 PM
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Well if Verizon gets a CDMA version there is no reason for Sprint not to, and that would leave no reason for T-Mobile not to either, especially with their parent (T-Mobile in Europe) having it.
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