Who is more monopolistic Microsoft or Apple? - Page 2 - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums
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post #16 of 127 (permalink) Old 2010-04-19, 04:34 PM
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Staying on topic, the availability of various toolkits for all the new platforms and OSes is playing a huge role in preventing the bad old days of developer lock-in.

hkay, which toolkit(s) are you using for Mac and iPhone development? Have you been able to compare with those offered for Microsoft mobile devices, Google Android, Palm, or others? It would be interesting to get opinions on whether there is a monopoly out there on development, although I certainly don't believe it to be true.



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post #17 of 127 (permalink) Old 2010-04-19, 04:51 PM
 
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I've been using XCode/Objective C for my development. The tools are good, debugging on the iPhone works very well. The SDK's are generally good, although I wish Apple would document stuff better.

I have no plans on making stuff for other platforms. I think all-in-one development systems that would make an app for multiple platforms would just produce poor products in general. I have zero expectation that what I code for the Mac/iPhone could be easily ported by pressing a build button on another system.

Apple's market in numbers (numbers of Macs, iPhones, iPads) is large enough for any serious developer to make a product specific for that platform. And if a developer thinks otherwise for their product, then maybe they just don't have a product that will reach a wide enough base to begin with. For example, a product that calculates the optimum length of a whip that a jockey on horseback should use, just is not a product - it's a hobby - enjoyable to make this app, but no one should expect to make money from it.

-------

so back on topic. Is Apple a monopoly because you can only get apps from their store. No. The only apps that would be available would be the apps that developers make. As a developer I like the iTunes store because it makes it easy to reach my market. And if a developer doesn't want to make proper apps for the product than they are not much of a developer. That's my opinion.

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post #18 of 127 (permalink) Old 2010-04-20, 07:01 AM
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Apple is not a monopoly. They may have closed systems, but there's nothing illegal about that. Microsoft, on the other hand has often used and been convicted of using illegal methods to force market share. They use their dominant position to try to block competition, which Apple doesn't use. Also, MS's unethical behaviour goes right back to the start, when Bill Gates used Harvard computers to develop a BASIC interpreter for the MITS Altair 8800 computer. The Harvard computers were not supposed to be used for commercial purposes. Bottom line, Microsoft is a convicted monopolist, Apple isn't.

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neither is "monopolistic"
Microsoft has been convicted for it. They are a very unethical company that regularly uses illegal or near illegal tactics to force market share. For a recent example, take a look at how they rammed their OOXML through as an ISO standard. Then look at cases like the recent one with i4i, where they deliberately violated patents, after pretending to enter a deal with i4i.

Back in the DOS days, there was also DR-DOS, from Digital Research, which had features that MS-DOS didn't. However, MS leaned on computer suppliers to not install it. They also put a test in Windows to see if it was running on DR-DOS and then threw up a bogus error message if it was. Digital Research also had GEM for a graphical desktop. There were others, but I don't recall them at the moment.

Last edited by Jake; 2010-04-21 at 01:29 PM. Reason: 3 consecutive posts merged
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post #19 of 127 (permalink) Old 2010-04-20, 01:51 PM
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No company can establish a monoply until it is successful. I've often said I find childish the anti-Microsft hysteria perpetuated here and elsewhere - MS did and does what every other business in the world tiries to do - establish more market share, promote its products through incentives for its vendors, distributors and third party developers. The only difference is that it succeeded and everyone else failed. Hence the sudden "revelation" among hurt competitors, their fanboys and governement lobbyists that the some of its practices are illegal. MS became a cashcow for governments all over the world - "you are too rich, pay up". And they did and went on around their business, just like many other lower profile companies - RIM comes to mind, they payed $600 mln for alleged patent infringements a few years back. They would have probably won the litigation in the end, but decided that the possible injunction in the meantime would hurt their business more, and payed up. I don't remember anyone calling that an act of confession, but so many of you regard MS as admitting guilt by settling some of the big lawsuits.
Anyway, Apple is about to be in the same position soon. It is just not that big yet. As soon as it takes 50% of the smartphone market or a substantial share from the computer OS market, all bitter rivals will unite in their cries for help to the government racketeers, and the latter will be more than happy to oblige.
And, finally, why do any companies establish market dominance in the presence of so many alternatives - because people like their products and are willing to pay for them. Period. Everything else is wishful thinking by sore losers.
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post #20 of 127 (permalink) Old 2010-04-20, 02:06 PM
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Please stop using "Monopoly" to describe "Anti-Trust"

A monopoly and an anti-trust violation are different things, but some people in this thread are trying to use the terms interchangeably. A monopoly is not illegal, per se, but if anti-trust violations occur in the establishment or maintenance of said monopoly it is certainly illegal.

Arthur, as per the above confusion of terminology, look up the legal evidence (i.e. their own internal email chains going back to their beginning) that has gotten MS convicted on anti-trust violations many times. Time to move on, friend, and see the new reality. As one of the executives of the multi-national company I work for once said at a corporate conference regarding business practices: "We will never do business like Microsoft!"

I think we've established here quite clearly that Apple is not a monopoly, although many of us believe that they are almost fascistic in their control issues. With that I'm bowing out of this thread.



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post #21 of 127 (permalink) Old 2010-04-20, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by stampeder View Post
A monopoly and an anti-trust violation are different things, but some people in this thread are trying to use the terms interchangeably. A monopoly is not illegal, per se, but if anti-trust violations occur in the establishment or maintenance of said monopoly it is certainly illegal.
No disagreement here. It just happens that you fall under the scrutiny of anti-trust legislation after you de facto become a monopoly. I agree that Apple is not a monopoly yet. Therefore it's out of the radar of anti-trust legislation. But regardless of if, when, and why that happens, I will still fail to see why I should think in black and white terms about the gadgets and products from Microsoft, Apple or anyone else.

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Arthur, as per the above confusion of terminology, look up the legal evidence (i.e. their own internal email chains going back to their beginning) that has gotten MS convicted on anti-trust violations many times.
I'm far from the idea of even attempting to dig through corporate legal matters, because it's way over my head. The same applies for (I guess) everyone else posting here, but some people for some reason have very strong opinions on the subject.

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As one of the executives of the multi-national company I work for once said at a corporate conference regarding business practices: "We will never do business like Microsoft!"
Very powerful and wise words. If one day I am rich enough to own a grocery store, I may use them too to praise my ethical business practices.
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post #22 of 127 (permalink) Old 2010-04-21, 06:57 AM
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MS did and does what every other business in the world tiries to do
Please review the many court cases where they've been convicted of illegal anticompetitive behavior. When they can force computer suppliers to provide only Windows, as they have been doing for years, that is abuse of monopoly, plain & simple.

You might also review how they rammed OOXML through ISO and in the process crippled one committee and then ignored changes required to make it an accepted "standard".

Take a look also, at the poor product quality, and ask yourself how they managed to aquire their dominant position.
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post #23 of 127 (permalink) Old 2010-04-21, 08:00 AM Thread Starter
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I disagree about the poor product quality. Anyone who uses Lotus Notes on a regular basis would tell you that it is much, much poorer quality than MS apps. And one of the worst apps that I use on my home PCs is probably Apple's iTunes which is slow and prone to crash. And now Apple is trying to shoehorn other non-media content into iTunes for iPad users and it is getting more awkward. Getting photos onto an iDevice is a major pain in the butt - the only way is to sync to a specific folder on your PC. I far prefer MS' apps to these ones.
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post #24 of 127 (permalink) Old 2010-04-21, 08:51 AM
 
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iTunes on a Mac works great though which I guess is a pro argument for their semi closed system. And at least Apple provides a Windows version. You can't sync a Microsoft phone or zune on a Mac at all.
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post #25 of 127 (permalink) Old 2010-04-21, 09:14 AM
 
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Using the automotive industry as an analogy (this is pure fictional), if you don't like the fact that you can't buy replacement brake pads for your Ferrari at any Canadian Tire store but from Ferrari themselves, is Ferrari monopolistic? Do you have to buy a Ferrari to commute?

On the other hand, if a big domestic car manufacturer (again pure fictional) who has always dominated the domestic market with full-size passenger cars over any other manufacturers trying to import compact cars, of course people are going to praise the company's success simply because this company is successful by wiping out their competition. What if the fact is that this car manufacturer has bribed the NHTSA to pass a law to require every passenger car sold in the domestic market to pass the most ridiculous crash tests in favor of full-size passenger cars?

Of course this car manufacturer is going to wipe out its competition even though compact cars have been proven successful in all other markets in the world. Does that not make compact cars seem like a bad product simply because everybody has been accustomed to full-size passenger cars? Can I go against the norm and import a compact car? Isn't this company monopolistic?

And for those who refuse to learn or acknowledge the dirty secrets of this company will they not understand why people disprove this company's business practice and why there are extreme opinions about this company?
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post #26 of 127 (permalink) Old 2010-04-21, 10:02 AM
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I disagree about the poor product quality.
It's been a few years since I've used Lotus Notes, but I don't recall it being poor quality. In fact I liked some of the features that don't seem to be available elsewhere, at least not in an integrated package. In my career, I have supported OS/2 and Windows at IBM. I can assure you that there were far more problems with Windows than OS/2. Take for example the problem Windows has with malware. A big part of this problem is because Microsoft tightly integrated IE with the operating system. The only reason they had for doing this was to back up what they'd claimed in the Netscape vs Microsoft trial. Netscape had taken MS to court over the forced bundling of IE in Windows. MS claimed that it was part of the operating system, even though it wasn't at the time. They then mingled the browser code with the operating system, with the result that malware encountered by the brower now has the run of the system. This is very bad software engineering practice that should have never been done. This is but one example of poor software quality from MS and one that was deliberately done to make a point in court. Then take a look at how often Windows crashes or locks up. While significant progress has been made with this problem, it still is not a reliable system, compared with Linux, Netware or OS/2. The list goes on.

I have no experience with Apple gear, so I can't comment on that.
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post #27 of 127 (permalink) Old 2010-04-21, 10:31 AM
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JamesK, I can only admire how the hardship you've suffered from MS Windows throughout the years hasn't clouded your judgement.

And, what do I know - today I learned that the evil empire unleashed malware on the whole mankind just to prove Netscape's lawyers wrong. Fortunately, unsuccessful - the court didn't fall for that, and good prevailed - Microsoft had to unbundle its browser, as a result of which its flaky OS died, while Netscape triumphs to this day. And, thanks to that, and Linux, we are all safe again.
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post #28 of 127 (permalink) Old 2010-04-21, 10:50 AM
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^^^^
Actually, I've often managed to avoid using Windows.

However, having much experience supporting Windows and OS/2 and much experience in using Windows, OS/2 and Linux, I am speaking of what I know. Windows has many serious issues that affect product qualitity, including security. Some of this may be due to it's roots back in DOS, which means it evolved from a single user, non networked OS, which results in many compromises (All Windows versions from 1.x to Me were DOS based. NT, 2000 etc. were not.) with security tacked on as an afterthought. Also, many user functions require admin rights, which compromise security. When someone, with only user rights, encounters malware, the possible damage is greatly reduced. As a result, recent Windows versions have all those irritating pop up messages (Do you really want to do this, cross your heart and hope to die? <g>) to prevent malware from running, the same messages that pop up so often people tend to ignore them. On the other hand, I don't ever recall a Linux user app (not admin function) that required root privilege. With Linux, the home directories can be mounted non-executable, so that programs saved there will not run and directories containing executables can be mounted read only. These also make Linux much more malware resistant. Further, there has never been anything like that Windows "feature" of something in an email automatically running, which is a wide open door for malware. In order for such malware to run in Linux, the user has to take several deliberate steps, assuming he even has the rights to do them.

Now, how long can you leave your Windows computer running? My computer has currently been running for almost 6 weeks, but prior to that it was up for over 7 months. I previously had one Linux computer running continuously for over 2 years! Unlike Windows, the only software install that requires a reboot is a kernel update. There are no forced updates that may cause your computer to reboot in the middle of a presentation, as happened with Steve Balmer. When there's an update available, and icon on my task bar changes. I can then click on the icon, see what the change is and then allow it. I then continue on with what I was doing without worrying about the computer rebooting.
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post #29 of 127 (permalink) Old 2010-04-21, 11:10 AM
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Thanks, JamesK, for turning back time. Reading your latest post, I feel I'm back in the year 2001. That's about the timeframe when the points you made were valid, and that's when I first read them.
Also, forgive my ignorance on Linux - that same year was the last time I tried to use Linux on my PC, and swore to not look at it again for at least 5 years. In 2006 I renewed for another 5 years. 2011 is coming, but I feel I will decide to try Mac rather than Linux.
I guess that answers your question - the last time I rebooted my Linux machine was in April 2001. When did you last reboot your Windows?
I also have a feeling I speak for 95% of PC users in the world.
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post #30 of 127 (permalink) Old 2010-04-21, 11:33 AM
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^^^^
The last time I booted Windows was at work this morning. As for my own personal computers, it would have been a few weeks ago, when I updated some software on it. Of all my computers, I only have Windows on my notebook, which usually runs Linux. My notebook, an IBM ThinkPad, runs Linux reliably, but often locks up solid with XP. Last time I saw a Windows blue screen was yesterday, on another computer at work. Again, XP was the culprit.
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