PBS HD Buffalo Ghosting & Other Issues - Page 5 - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums
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post #61 of 204 (permalink) Old 2006-08-08, 03:18 PM Thread Starter
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I'll be watching...

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post #62 of 204 (permalink) Old 2006-08-08, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaamon
By the way he said that they were still trying/working to fix the upconverted sd to hd quality with Central Pbs.
If you were talking to Joe about this, I'm surprised he still references upconverted programming in his conversation with you.

He said the same thing to me weeks ago when we all noticed the major problems with PBS. The thing is, the PQ issues are also on True HD programming - I sent him photos of both HD and upconverts.

Perhaps he feels that if the one is corrected, so will the other...

I'm moving this to the WNED thread.

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post #63 of 204 (permalink) Old 2006-08-09, 08:06 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by filper
I'll be watching...
PQ is still the same.

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post #64 of 204 (permalink) Old 2006-08-09, 10:09 AM
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I think the problem now is the main feed from PBS.

This morning I compared the signal from Rochester to Buffalo and they both exhibit a smear type image on moving scenes.

The picture from Pbs looks like they are using too much noise reduction or compressing the signal too much.

I remember when Start Choice was getting off the ground I had a friend that was in charge of the uplink and setup, he invited me into the trailer on Unwin Ave.

He was explaining and showing me the feed coming in and when you compress the signal what it does to the signal. I could clearly see when he added more compression you would get that smear type image on moving scenes. It's like the cheaper lcd tv when you watch sports or hockey. With more compression you also lost contrast and resolution too.

I noticed that the Buffalo feed was a few second ahead of the Rochester signal this way I could switch back and forth and compared the difference.

Wonder why the delay ?

The Rochester was amlost pilexating at times on moving scenes and the signal strength was very strong.

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post #65 of 204 (permalink) Old 2006-08-09, 01:53 PM
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A bit of explaination of the problems we are viewing.

Spoke to Pbs this morning and he welcomed the feed back. I found out a bit more info that may explain most of the problems we are seeing.

I explain on most of the programming we are currently still seeing a bit of ghosting/smearing/Jello head even on the true HD shows and not just on the sd converted ones.

He explained that the flaws in the HD programs that we are seeing like the smearing/blur is not from his broadcasting/encoder side and most of it originates from the film source itself after conversion.

Here are some of the reasons he mentioned. First he said some of the show producers like to film in the 1280x720p 24fps format. He mentioned that the film rate of 24fps is not fast enough for tv. Then you have to convert from 24fps to 30fps and to 1920x1080i. Second some of the producers likes to film with the camera iris wide open, and this also tends to soften the picture losing detail/resolution.

He also mentioned that some of the producers also try and add filters to spice up and also reduce the detail when shooting in HD. He disagrees and commented, this is HD people wants to view the full resolution lets show all the detail it can. He prefers if a show originates from a 1920x1080i format in all its glory.

The sd to hd conversion is done at Pbs central (head office). He said Pbs Central are aware of the problems and is looking on how to try and correct/solve/improve the picture quality.

So it seems what we are seeing is a by product/negative of these conversions. He is only one station in hundreds so not sure if his voice will be heard.

Also when Pns(WNED) broadcast a film that was filmed in HD, (this can be in a 720p/24 fps or 1080i/30fps)(29.97fps to be exact), the HD logo will show on the upper left of your tv screen from WNED.. At 30fps it does minimize the problem.

This evening he mentioned from 4pm to 9pm the programs orginates in HD.

He mentioned the 8pm show tonight Window to the Sea, is a true HD 1920x1080i produced from Buffalo so there is no conversion done here. He asked if I would be able to watch and give a feed back.

I told him I would call him back tomorrow with the results of the 8pm show.

Ps: 57 I said one of our web moderators email him a few pictures of the problems a few weeks ago. He commented, if Iam not mistaken he thinks Joe had forward them onto Pbs central. He was not sure if he got back a response yet.

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post #66 of 204 (permalink) Old 2006-08-09, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaamon
He mentioned the 8pm show tonight Window to the Sea, is a true HD 1920x1080i produced from Buffalo so there is no conversion done here. He asked if I would be able to watch and give a feed back.
I'll have to clean my specs for this first


Thanks Yaamon... and 57 for the crusade.

Let's see the true picture tonight.

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post #67 of 204 (permalink) Old 2006-08-10, 01:34 AM
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I was out today and just got back, so I couldn't judge. I can however say that some of PBS' comments don't make sense. A few months ago, we were privy to a lot of the same programming we are today. Examples include Smart Travels, Cousteau, etc.

A few months ago those programmes were pristine and of the highest quality with no ghosting/smearing/jello. Today they are crap.

His comments regarding "production values" or "conversions" therefore hold NO water when taking this into account. Something has changed in the last 2 months and it has nothing to do with production values or frame rate.

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post #68 of 204 (permalink) Old 2006-08-10, 08:52 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaamon
He mentioned the 8pm show tonight Window to the Sea, is a true HD 1920x1080i produced from Buffalo so there is no conversion done here. He asked if I would be able to watch and give a feed back.

I told him I would call him back tomorrow with the results of the 8pm show.
I still noticed minimal 'ghosting' during this broadcast, probably reduced due to the fact that there was not a lot of fast movement in the show.

I have also observed some pixelating during slow scene transitions on most shows.

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post #69 of 204 (permalink) Old 2006-08-10, 11:53 AM
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filper I did notice a little smear on the faces of some of the people but the picture was much better than what we have been previously viewing.

No smear on Csi NY lastnight.

Fred from Pbs mentioned said this show was filmed in 1920x1080i/29.97fps, there was no conversion done or should I say a min amount?

Speaking to Fred this morning I did let him know on what we saw. I said the picture looks like you are running a digital noise reduction or too much compression.

He also had a coworker tape it and they can see the problems we are talking about now.

56 how did you know By the way I asked Fred what bit rate are you running on the HD channel and he said because of the think bright and the other sd between 11-13mps.

No wonder why we are seeing a reduction in quality. I asked him what was the bit rate previously and he said it has always been the same no changes?

I’m thinking even though the hd channels might have priority it needs a bit more bandwidth up to say 15mps to help solve the problems we are seeing.

Here the good news. He mentioned WNED was one of the first stations in the Buffalo area to broadcast in HD, so they have a first generation HD encoder. A new one he said cost over $100,000.us

The good news is that WNED has raised some $$ through viewers contribution and he expect to purchase a new encoder within 3 to 6 months and hope to have it operational in 6 months time.

This latest/newest encoder is two generations newer than what they are currently using, forgot if that means this is a 4th gen encoder.

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post #70 of 204 (permalink) Old 2006-08-10, 01:13 PM Thread Starter
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Perhaps WNED could allocate ALL of the bandwidth to the HD channel for one specified hour during the evening as a test... and post the time/show in advance in this thread for us to compare.

Does anyone know if the folks at WNED are following this thread ? I sent them a link.

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post #71 of 204 (permalink) Old 2006-08-10, 02:20 PM
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filper what I suggested was since the other two sub channels are sd why not reduce the bandwidth on them a little more to get a reasonable 15mps for the HD channel.

He said it was already at max compression they could do with further quality loss. Oh noo..

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post #72 of 204 (permalink) Old 2006-08-10, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaamon
filper I did notice a little smear on the faces of some of the people but the picture was much better than what we have been previously viewing.
I watched the shows (OTA) with a more critical eye, European Travels, Smart Travels and Windows to the Sea. Though there might have been an improvement, there was still smearing in faster transitions, especially in "Windows".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaamon
Speaking to Fred this morning I did let him know on what we saw. I said the picture looks like you are running a digital noise reduction or too much compression.I’m thinking even though the hd channels might have priority it needs a bit more bandwidth up to say 15mps to help solve the problems we are seeing.
Bandwidth is quickly becoming the number one shortfall and the costs are escalating. You see it with Satellite, web (podcasting) and compression must be done right. PBS is probably being sucked into the bandwidth economy but they have gone too far.
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post #73 of 204 (permalink) Old 2006-08-25, 05:08 PM
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Anyone heard anything of these issues lately? I watched the Yanni concert last night and the ghosting is still very apparent, especially on fast moving frames.
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post #74 of 204 (permalink) Old 2006-08-25, 05:34 PM Thread Starter
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I think they spent their time on the new logo instead of the picture quality issue...

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post #75 of 204 (permalink) Old 2006-08-25, 06:36 PM
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I agree, I find myself watching PBS less and less because of the poor picture quality.
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