Oh? So stealing (computer) software is OK because it's not a physical object? I wasn't using the word thief or theft in a special (criminal) way.

 

But if you stole half the world's annual orange production (about 23 million tons) the resulting loss would be much bigger.

 

I certainly agree movies and TV programs don't grow on trees; writers, directors, producers and so on deserve to be compensated for their intellectual and creative efforts. Infringement of copyright isn't morally or legally acceptable. In Canada, copyright holders have the right to sue for damages against those who use their intellectual property, without permission. Sculptor Michael Snow even sued for his moral rights, when Toronto's Eaton Centre put Xmas crap on his famed goose.

Academics and the legal community have struggled with the issues surrounding intellectual property and compensation. Most members of this forum are well aware of the struggle. Sometimes copyright gets complicated, especially in collaborative works, like music and film. Apps and other forms of software fall into that category too. Whether code, video or music, however, artists deserve to have their rights protected. Hence, victims can sue for damages.

BTW, I wouldn't accept the idea movies wouldn't be produced without commercial incentives. Humans have expressed themselves for ages, as far back as etches on limestone caves in southern France. To be human involves creation and expression, even if its just telling stories. Digital movies are simply one medium in which to express our ideas. Commercial incentives seem very powerful in our culture, which accepts capitalism, without reflection. Movies might not be watchable to most of us in a western capitalist culture, without the profit incentive, but they would exist. Moreover, it might be argued many commercial films are simply knockoffs of previous ideas, some they got for free because the narrative was first told in caves.

Of course, I personally enjoy numerous commercial films and TV, especially iterations of ancient narratives, to the point I've spent thousands on sight and sound hardware, and subscriptions to geo-blocking services, HBO, Amazon, Netflix, Showtime, to name a few. I did cut the cable cord, though.

 

Another way of getting free movies and boxed set, if you are not in a rush to see something specific, is to visit your local library and borrow it. There is so much content available there, along with books, that I may never run out of entertainment material.

 

Intellectual property deserves compensation but it isn't in the same class of property as a physical object.

That's an old school of thought that also results in light sentences for so called "white collar" crime. Stealing anything of worth can result in the same impact as stealing physical objects.

Intellectual theft is no different. Small movie makers may go bankrupt and thousands of people lose their jobs or not be able to find one. Less money is available for movie or TV show production so creativity is stifled and quality goes down. To pay for losses due to piracy, more advertising is inserted into content making the viewing experience less enjoyable. Meanwhile, the big studios just cut costs, raise their prices and continue to absorb smaller companies that cannot make a profit. The result is an entertainment oligarchy that is powerful enough to control worldwide distribution channels, fix prices and sway governments into passing punitive, anti-consumer laws. No victims?! We are all victims.

 

There's nothing old school about viewing property that requires conceptual effort to recognize it, intellectual property, differently from physical or tangible property, like land. Today's intellectual property lawyers still use such language.

However, I do share your concern for the differing outcomes in our copyright laws, between individual creators and corporate copyright holders. Creators often lose, becoming victims of corporations that simply buy intellectual property, for instance, without any effort to produce it, while benefiting from the ability to buy better legal advice or bully creators into selling their copyrights for the sake of making a deal. Sometimes creators even sell under pressure for too little to corporations, since economic necessity to feed and clothes themselves is immediate, while the corporation can wait for a bigger return, leaving the originator of the asset, out in the cold. More broadly, when we fail to recognize the failings of a marketplace that favours corporations over individual citizens, I agree we're all potential victims.

How fraud or embezzlement got into the discussion, isn't clear to me. I think we're heading off topic so I'm signing off too.

 

Its only recently been deemed that.

But I think NeilN was talking about CableTV, not internet.

 

^^^ Yes, pretty obvious given the thread's subject and what I was replying to.

 

Meanwhile on NW England and Rhyl ...

Five arrests in 'fully loaded' Kodi streaming box raids - BBC News

 

Well, I think that sooner or later it will happen in Canada. Kijiji is populated with loaded Kodi and Iptv adds.
Some of the dealers in the GTA are so bold that they are selling fully loaded android boxes and Iptv in their stores and even have the service displayed in their stores.
Then again Canada has never done much about piracy.
I am surprised that Americans are not putting any pressure on Canada as it is mostly their content being pirated.

 

I honestly agree that illegal streaming boxes are definitely a problem. Do you want to know how I feel about it? Well I was raised in a family that is VERY Religious, We're Catholic. So we all taught about morals, right and wrong, etc. I have never stole in my life, I have never been arrested, I've never been charged criminally, and I've never been to Jail. When I want something, I am taught to work really hard, and you can afford things you desire. After getting married and moving into my own house, I am now responsible for the TV situation. I had a choice, Go with Antenna, go with a Legal streaming service like NetFlicks, or Showmi or Crave TV, or go with a Subscription Cable TV service. NEVER Has it crossed my mind to purchase a Kodi Box with illegal addons, not even once. This has NEVER been even an option for me, its stupid, its childish, and people who use these kind of things are Selfish, and have no respect for intellectual rights. Once again, I'm a Catholic, and I work very hard at my job and I'm compensated appropriately for it, so I decided to go with a Subscription Cable TV service, well its actually a Satellite, but It's often grouped with Cable TV because it competes with other TV providers. If myself and my Wife's job situation was different, and we were poor, or not as financially sound as we are, we STILL WONT CONSIDER STEALING TV WITH A KODI BOX, We would probably downgrade our TV package or go with Antenna.

I do want to comment on others, There are people we know who make a lot of money, more than my wife and I do, and they brag about how good their kodi box is, but every time we come over to their house, its always freezing, buffering, lagging, and I always ask them if its so good, put on this channel or that channel, and guess what? they dont have those channels, and I always tell them well if you want something so bad, sometimes you have to actually PAY for it instead of steal it, and they don't seem to care but hey, I did not raise this couple and they are definately not Catholic, so I don't know if they learned about what is morally right and wrong.

Not every rich person I know steals though, there are tons of people who make good money and actually spend it on their TV service. Sometimes you have to stop and think, if you can afford something, then yeah go ahead and buy it, if you can't, then don't buy it. Sometimes its OKAY to live without Premium TV services, the world is not going to end, you don't have to steal it, but if you cant afford it, dont get it, no ones holding a gun to your head and forcing you to steal, so don't freaking do it, its stupid, and sooner or later people will call you out, if you are one of my friends, I'm gonna call you out publically untill you realize how dumb you are, and guess what? If you feel entitled to using those illegal kodi boxes then I feel entitled to calling you out and putting you on the spot too. Think of me as the "good guy"

 

Paolo....don't hold back.....say what you mean.......you did a pretty good job of calling that guy a dumb thief!! LOL

 

I agree with almost everything you've said Paolo. I'm in the same situation. We pay for what we receive (Netflix, a few other niche but legit streaming services). Just remember that some of us non-catholics can be morally upright too. I also wouldn't call Kodi users stupid, they just live by a different code than you and I.

Personally, I think I am only qualified to comment on the behaviour of friends who claim to share my beliefs and values, not the whole population. For the rest, I can make it clear where I stand if people ask me to do something that is against my beliefs, but if I try to push my values on them unasked then I run the danger of being self-righteous, judgemental, and sometimes hypocritical (nobody is perfect).

 

Funny thing. Within 10 minutes of finishing my previous post, my daughter came home saying that her friend's family has an Android Box and can watch new release movies for free. We then had a good discussion on the difference between illegal and dishonest, and about not being judgemental and preachy.

 

Thanks smallmj. I did not mean that only Catholics are morally upright, but I do respect other religions that teach their worshipers to be morally upright as well. And I agree with you, As for your daughter mentioning the Android box, you did the right thing by educating her about right from wrong. I remember when I was younger and there was a Pay Per View Wrestling event on TV and My parents could not afford to purchase it but I REALLY wanted to watch it. I ended up missing the event and NOT watching it, and I turned out just fine. If I really wanted to watch it, my parents would have definately let me, but with the condition I raise the money myself which I actually did at least once.

 

While I don't condone piracy, the sale of these boxes resulted from the archaic policies of our telecommunications regulators. Much like the satellite piracy days, the public wants access to content that is not available currently through any provider in Canada. This is also the reason why VPN's became so popular with subscribers clamoring for content available on U.S. Netflix that is now geo-blocked.

If we truly want to combat piracy, the solution is simple. Make the content readily (and easily) available to Canadian consumers. I've asked acquaintance’s that own Android boxes if they would be willing to pay for content not currently available in Canada and the response I hear has been overwhelmingly "YES".

 

I am just curious what content is not available in Canada that makes all those people break the law or commit piracy so they can watch something that only Americans have access to.

 

Saying yes and actually doing it are two different things. I remember when there was a soccer game and it was being broadcast on BEIN channel. We were at somebodys house and when the game came on they tried to stream it illegally. So I decided to turn on my phone and watch it on my app from my provider. Some kids at the house were very surprised how much better it looked on my phone. I told them it looks so much better and doesnt cut out like theirs because I actually actually PAY for this channel and i work hard for my money so im allowed to treat my self once and a while. I dont think these kids understood cus they were so happy to get it for free and made fun of me for wasting my money. So not everyone u talk to would pay. People will steal because they have a sense of entitlement. If u think the tv laws are archaic why not apply to the government and do something about it. Thats the problem with todays society no one wants to actually do something to get the laws changed. If u think about it if people want the price of hydro to go down then run for premier make that one of ur commitments and i will vote for you no questions asked.

 

Saying yes and actually doing it are two different things. So not everyone u talk to would pay. If u think the tv laws are archaic why not apply to the government and do something about it. Thats the problem with todays society no one wants to actually do something to get the laws changed. If u think about it if people want the price of hydro to go down then run for premier make that one of ur commitments and i will vote for you no questions asked.

Paolo, in an ideal world, much of what you describe would be possible. However in reality, the reason for much of what you talk about is due to collusion. We all know Canadian's pay some of the highest cell phone charges in the world. Everyone complains about this, but nothing changes. Why? Because we basically have an oligopoly here in Canada. Two major conglomerates control everything from the telecommunication services provided all the way down to the programming we watch. There is too much concentration of power in the hands of the few and those few hands get greased very well. Trying to change laws is all well and good, but the average Joe doesn't have the financial resources to take on the conglomerates.

With respect of your visit to somebody's home I have to ask, could it be possible that the financial situation in that household was such that they lacked the finances to pay for programming?

Same thing about hydro costs, but in that case the cure is worse than the disease.

 

I would agree to your theory if people on welfare or working for a minimum wage were doing piracy because they could not afford to buy regular tv service, but few people that I know that are doing the piracy have nice houses and nice cars so they could easily afford some kind of legal tv service.
They are doing it simply because they can.
These days you can get tv basic tv service for $25 and Netflix for $10, I do not think that these prices are out of range for anybody.
Blaming government or providers just makes piracy as the right thing to do in minds of people doing it.

But next time you brag to people that you can get movies for free on Kodi or get iptv service for $10 a month you should know that most of us know that you are a thief, we just do not say nothing out of politeness.

 

The problem is If you support the android boxes with illegal kodi plugins your a bad guy in the eyes of the law but if you subscribe to a cable tv package and spend your hard earned money for something you actually enjoy people will tell you your supporting corrupt Ogliopolies so its a loose loose situation from what I can see. In that case let me spend my money and atleast be happy with what I watch.

 

Most of the people pay for the tv or streaming service but they just do not advertise it on forums liked his one.
Pirates on the other hand love to cry how mistreated they are by the BDU's but it is nothing else then just trying to justify the piracy.
They are doing it because down inside they know that what they are doing is wrong and having bunch of excuses somehow in their eyes makes it right and helps them fall asleep at night.

 

Not just that but if you disagree with them for any reason, because you were brought up with proper morals and learnt to pay for things you want, these people quickly resort to name calling and think you either work for the government or work for a tv network and call you a shill and they can't understand that there are people out there who DON'T do what they are doing.

 

Well that totally depends on where you get your feed from, do you get it directly from BEIN ie: BEIN CONNECT? or do you get it from your service provider such as Rogers, Bell, Shaw, Telus? I get mine from my service provider so I use their app on my phone/tablet and tune into the channel and it looks great

 

No it does not and also should not.

I respected your experience as being different from my experience. Please show the same courtesy. All paying customers with sufficient bandwidth (as evidenced by the excellent quality of other feeds) should receive a first class feed.

 

There are plenty of things on an Android box not available here, including a lot of International channels, and other stations like ESPN and FS1/2 (and no, I don't want to watch re-hashed things via TSN or SN).

 

Don't waste your time. He doesn't get it and never will. Just because he enjoys the TV that Bell overcharges him for doesn't mean everyone else does.

He has lots of sanctimonius posts the last few days about having morals like all good catholics and crap like that.

I personally would gladly sign up for those stations you mentioned along with many others, but they are not allowed in our protectionist telecom industry as the media companies no they can't compete against real competition.

Which has zero to do with the discussion of eliminating Simsubs completely which has helped push some people to alternate means like netflix or for some people Android TV boxes.

It's time the canadian media companies learn how to compete like other businesses do. If they offered a product at a fair price would be fine, but It's all about gouging the customer. Always has been.

For too many years they have been allowed to live under protectionist regulations in the. telecom industry.

Other than the CBC, all the other networks are slaves to US programming. They say it's to help fund canadian programming, but most of the canadian content produced is either realty TV garbage or news.

Try creating good Canadian made dramas that people will watch for once instead of constantly whining about the slightest bit of competition you might face in your CRTC created monopoly.

Worse thing the CRTC ever allowed was for local stations to be bought up by the bell's and roger's of the media world. it's been a downhill slide ever since as the only company incentive is too make profits for shareholders.

Just another Bell shill on these boards, must be a shareholder.

 

Re: bev fans's....."what content is not available in Canada"?

Well.....two thirds of Netflix US's content lineup, for ONE thing.

Any other un-informed questions? (No offense intended...but you must be an American and are assuming (as many Americans do) that everything in the rest of the world is the same as it is in the US of A.)

 

Well, Netflix has different content for each country where it is available so I do not know what's your point. This is how competition works. To have access to American Netflix you would basically have to move to the states if you feel that you have to have it.
I would still like to hear some examples of content that is available in USA but not available in Canada by legal means.

I am not American and love Canada the way it is, and do not need the American way of life interfere in every aspect of my life.

 

Did you know that The Source electronics stores are owned by Bell? The big mega-media conglomerate Bell?

Next time you need batteries, or a new HDMI cable, just go in the store and take one without paying. Bell is so big that it's OK to steal from them...

Wait...you don't want to steal from Bell's The Source stores, but it is OK to steal programming they legally paid for to resell to you?

What's the difference?

And if The Source doesn't sell eggs and milk, is it OK to steal it from another store because it is unavailable at The Source? Why is it OK with TV shows, movies, and sporting events?

 

Inglewood, great example, people will always be two faced and resort to name calling and accusing us of being a shill or employee or stake holder simply because we do not believe in obtaining something for free that costs money. I could care less if the stuff you want is available or not in canada and it still inexcusable reason to do such.
A lot of people will still choose to watch stuff with illegal kodi plugins, and let them, like I said earlier, these people will resort to name calling and acusing people of working as insiders just because I learned to PAY for things I want. Sounds stupid but thats the way life works so Im done arguing with people on here. If you want to make fun of me again, go talk to a wall

 

I agree that the Canadian telecom industry is a mess, and that customers have been gouged for years by the incumbents. There is content that is not available here in a reasonable way. Will I resort to dishonest means to view it? No, I'll go without. It is only entertainment.