New CRTC wireless code effective Dec. 2, 2013 - Page 3 - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

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post #31 of 106 (permalink) Old 2013-06-03, 06:45 PM
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^^^^
Rogers offers a 10% discount for those who BYOD.

I haven't lost my mind. It's around here...somewhere...
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post #32 of 106 (permalink) Old 2013-06-03, 11:12 PM
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I suppose this is technically possible, but charging an astronomical fee for unlocking would be so blatantly obvious to everyone the amount of bad publicity this would generate alone is not worth it.
Bad publicity never stopped them from grossly overcharging for long distance, international roamng or SMS!
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post #33 of 106 (permalink) Old 2013-06-04, 12:25 AM
 
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I'm confused as to why everyone is implying an increase across the board??? Aren't most contracts in the states a 2 year maximum with phones being offered at the same price as our 3 year terms?

Personally I don't see a problem with the 3 year contract, it's more the phone subsidy that I have a problem with... It should be separated from the monthly service plan and the rate that it is paid off at should be clearly stated...

And it really isn't a subsidy to begin with as you aren't being given money to purchase the phone outright but you are being given the opportunity to purchase the phone over a period of time... It is essentially a form of financing...

TBH I'm really not sure the "subsidy" actually exists... I find it hard to believe that the Big 3 are actually purchasing phones at a price that is even remotely close to the full purchase price...
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post #34 of 106 (permalink) Old 2013-06-04, 06:57 AM
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@Torontocollin

There is voice and data contract and there is phone subsidy.

If your phone subsidy is for 3 years and you decide to cancel after 2 years than there is no cancelation fee. But you have to pay for the last year of the phone subsidy.


This new policy applies to customers who have entered into terms of any length, including those longer than the aforementioned two-year period. While it’s not certain yet how carriers will deal with the disparity of allowing contract holders to leave without penalty before their terms have expired, the CRTC has set about enforcing a maximum early cancellation fee that cannot exceed the amount of the phone subsidy itself, and must be payable over a two-year period. That means that after two years, if the phone balance hasn’t been paid off, customers will need to merely pay off the remaining amount of the device and be able to leave the provider without penalty.

In Quebec there are no contracts at all for the past couple of years. Only phone subsidies that are 2 or 3 years. You can cancel at anytime but you have to pay the remaining phone subsidy so it is better than what the CRTC is implementing now.

In the rest of Canada,Rogers,Telus and until recently Bell were charging early cancelation fees along with the phone subsidies. Now if you stick with them for at least 2 years no cancelation fees. Just pay the last year of the phone subsidy.
I'm with Telus and I'm pretty sure their deal is you can cancel whenever you want, you just have to pay off your device balance. There is no separate cancellation fee, like a $50 admin charge or anything. Just your Device Balance. So is that the same as we'd expect? I thought the new rules meant all device balance would be paid off in the first two years. So any cancellation after 2yrs is without cost.
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post #35 of 106 (permalink) Old 2013-06-04, 07:30 AM
 
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The cost of all new phones will go up in December GUARANTEED. This was not put in place for the consumer it was put in place for the cell phone manufacturers and the providers. Now contracts longer than 2 years are illegal so all phone providers need to adhere to a 2 year max term. This means phones will be refreshed every two years and providers get paid back for the phones quicker. If this was actually a serious decision in consumers favour it would have been retroactive.

This does provide an opportunity though for a new business providing finance to buy or lease an unlocked phone over a longer period to a 3rd party. You can either Buy an iphone 5 or S4 and Use Rogers or bell for $100 a month or lease a phone for 3 years for $40 a month and get a contract with Rogers or bell for $40 a month saving $20 per month.
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post #36 of 106 (permalink) Old 2013-06-04, 07:55 AM
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^^^^ Not all new phones... only phones people buy from a carrier attached to a 2 year contract.

I don't believe this has anything to do with phone manufacturers. I've purchased my last 3 phones directly from the maker.
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post #37 of 106 (permalink) Old 2013-06-04, 09:44 AM
 
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The prices may go up initially, but market pressure will probably drive them down. I wouldn't hop on the first 2 years contract just yet.
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post #38 of 106 (permalink) Old 2013-06-04, 09:58 AM
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I'm confused as to why everyone is implying an increase across the board??? Aren't most contracts in the states a 2 year maximum with phones being offered at the same price as our 3 year terms?
They are, but they also have way more people. Their two largest carriers have approximately ten times the subscriber count of any of ours, while their smallest still has about three times the subscriber count of any of ours (and is probably losing money). While they have more infrastructure than Canadian carriers, they don't have close to ten times more.

Covering a population as sparsely distributed across a massive area as Canada is an expensive proposition. Canadian carriers are forced to maintain higher margins, while the US carriers can make up lower margins in volume. That's not to say that they're not making plenty of profits, but a straight comparison to the US isn't a fair one.

Personally I don't see a problem with the 3 year contract, it's more the phone subsidy that I have a problem with... It should be separated from the monthly service plan and the rate that it is paid off at should be clearly stated...

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TBH I'm really not sure the "subsidy" actually exists... I find it hard to believe that the Big 3 are actually purchasing phones at a price that is even remotely close to the full purchase price...
You'd be surprised. In most cases, it is very close, especially on high end hardware.

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post #39 of 106 (permalink) Old 2013-06-04, 11:48 AM
 
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I'm confused as to why everyone is implying an increase across the board??? Aren't most contracts in the states a 2 year maximum with phones being offered at the same price as our 3 year terms?
You're forgetting that the minimum plan required to get a subsidy on a 2 year term in the US is much more expensive than the minimum plan required from the Big 3.

If you were to sign up for a cell phone plan today and get the iPhone 5 with the maximum subsidy the following is the minimum you'd pay per month.

AT&T: $70/month 2 year term
Verizon: $80/month 2 year term
Sprint: $79.99/month 2 year term
T-Mobile: $70/month for 2 years, $50/month after 2 years if you don't get another subsidy

Rogers/Bell/Telus: $50/month 3 year term

In short, US carriers charge higher monthly rates than Canadian carriers to keep their term lengths down and the upfront costs on par with Canadians.

Lastly, here are some Q1 2013 ARPU stats from the big carriers in Canada and the US

AT&T $65.01
Verizon $150.27 (Verizon reports per account, not by subscriber)
Sprint $63.67
T-Mobile $54.07

Telus: $60.40
Bell: $55.92
Rogers: $59.68
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post #40 of 106 (permalink) Old 2013-06-05, 04:33 PM
 
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Honestly haven't seen a price Hike after law 60 passed here in Quebec. Paid my Note II 199,99 in december, on a "3 years based subsidy". Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it was the price paid by any canadian buying a Note II around this time, with a 3 years contract. I will have to pay the pro-rata of the reminder on the "subsidy" if I go to another provider. So in a sens, the providers don't take more risk since we'll be ending paying for the cost of the phone one way or the other.

Think the CRTC could have gone further by imposing the same rule all over Canada. And for thoses on "subsidy" they should have force providers to put the monthly amount paid for the phone, and the reminder of the cost still to be paid, on the invoice. Because when you think about it, it's not a subsidy, it's a loan with no or very low interests.
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post #41 of 106 (permalink) Old 2013-06-05, 04:37 PM
 
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Bill 60 didn't eliminate 3 year contracts, the CRTC code does, hence why many are speculating prices will increase.
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post #42 of 106 (permalink) Old 2013-06-05, 04:47 PM
 
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Bill 60 eliminated, in effect, contract. Don't know how it is nowaday elsewhere in Canada, but before bill 60, you had to pay not only the "subsidy" of the phone for the reminder of the contract, but all the reminder of the plan. If you were on a 55$/month plan and you had 24 month to go, that was a steep 1320$ to pay. I know Rogers wanted to bill me for the reminder year when I got fed up with them. Waited till I had only 1 month to go and then switched.
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post #43 of 106 (permalink) Old 2013-06-05, 05:02 PM
 
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Bill 60 did not eliminate contracts it just changed the way carriers handled cancellation fees. With Bill 60 the subsidy can still amortize over 3 years. With the new CRTC code it has to amortize over 2, which will increase the upfront costs of devices or the monthly service fees.
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post #44 of 106 (permalink) Old 2013-06-05, 05:40 PM
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Prior to Bill 60, carriers were free to set the cancellation rates however they wanted. Bill 60 standardized the cancellation rates as pro-rated subsidies. While Bill 60 resulted in carriers potentially making less money on people who cancel, they would make the exact same amount of money on people who serve the life of the contract as before Bill 60.

The CRTC code changes contracts so that subscribers are only tied to a carrier for two years, rather than three, for their subsidy. This means that in exchange for a subsidy, the carrier only gets two years worth of monthly fees, rather than three. That's a 33% loss of return on investment for the carriers. They will have to compensate for that. It may mean smaller subsidies, or it may mean more expensive plans, but either way they won't just allow themselves to lose all that money.

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post #45 of 106 (permalink) Old 2013-06-05, 05:41 PM
 
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Hmm I realize I might be wrong in 1 assumption: Form a radio interview with the CRTC director of communications on 985fm.ca, I was under the impression that they could retrieve more then just the cost of the phone, for the first 24 months. Someone just told me here that it's not the case. I think I stand corrected. But I'll leave the post still. Maybe it will help someone that tought like me that for the first 24 months, penalties were still in place, over the cost of the phone.

-----

Note: I have started writing before TorontoColin replied so I maybe late. Didin't push send for a while.

That's my point. There is no more cancellation fee, after two years with the new code (here in Quebec, none at all). The only thing they can charge you it's the "subsidy" part for the reminder of the contract. Or if you prefer, the residual value of the phone.

One way or the other you are paying for your phone, in full, in your monthly plan, or in one shot (wich will give you the rebate for BYOD). The terminology subsidy should'nt even be used. It's an installment plan, a loan, but subsidy? Not really.

(BTW, if I can digress alittle, I can even tell you that I was able to change my monthly plan, because there was a promotion wich save me 20$ a month, and I didn't have to break my contract, and did not have to buy the phone back to do so. I pay now 55$/month for 3Go of data and unlimited calls in north America. So that's not a given that prices, on phones or on plans will raise because of the code implementation).

As I understand it, If canadians want a 36 month contract, nothing stops the providers to sell one, in the new code. There is just one thing that change: After two years, you don't have to pay for the 12 month reminding on your contract, of your monthly plan charges. You still have to pay for the rest of the value of the phone.

If price goes up, then I was wrong, but from what happened in Quebec, if it is any indication, it should not make any differences. In fact, the new code give providers still get a two years window for charging penalties for leaving (over the the cost of the phone) wich they don't have in Quebec, and prices didn't rise in Quebec, at least on phone cost. On monthly plan I'm not sure.
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