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Sale of Android boxes To Obtain "Free TV" Is Now Illegal In Canada.

256K views 806 replies 78 participants last post by  Brontosaurus 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
#94 ·
The last time I wanted something not available in Canada, I shipped it through an agency that was able to purchase it for me. So I paid extra for their service.

With these Android boxes, a lot of times you don't have to pay, but you still like receiving the content, so you do it - you don't wait for approvals by agencies in Canada or just go without it - life's too short for that. I also use the box to get clean streams of games through subscriptions that I pay for like NFL Game Pass and a DNS server - this way everything is on one device and I don't have to put up with simsubs for any NFL game.

I can still sleep morally at night, even though I might be watching / receiving some stuff I shouldn't. I have broken the law before too in the real world and received parking tickets, but all in all, I can live with myself. And so can many I know - I've bought tons of boxes for others of late, all upstanding citizens with various jobs in life.
 
#96 ·
Do you really believe that they're too lazy? They're so terrible at running their business that they just can't be bothered to collect revenue? Netflix wants global rights to everything they offer. If they just couldn't be bothered with worrying about Canada, why would they not collect whatever Netflix is willing to give them in addition to their US deal? So, either they want more money than Netflix is willing to pay or they've sold the Canadian rights somewhere else. Laziness is not a factor.

There are two kinds of "unavailable" here. The first, with which I sympathize with people who look for alternative ways of finding content, is stuff that is simply not available, for any amount of money, legally in Canada. This is still common for current events shows, but extremely rare at this point for scripted shows. For example, you're a huge Mets fan, and you have an mlb.tv subscription to watch their games, but you really love watching the pre and post-game shows and you want to watch a weekly catch-up Mets show that only airs in New York. There's no way to get that here without at a minimum resorting to grey market solutions like slingboxes or VPNs.

I even have a little bit of sympathy for the notion that sometimes our telecoms play dirty with content to try to strong-arm consumers into models that don't work for them. The new Star Trek show is a great example of this. CBS is going to be offering it up on their streaming only service. Netflix has international distribution rights for everywhere but Canada and the US and will be making it available at the same time as CBS. Bell bought the Canadian rights, and hasn't given details on how they plan on distributing it yet. They have a streaming service, and if they put it up on Crave at the same time as Netflix and CBS, then there's no excuse for anyone to not just pay for Crave if they really want it. However, if they delay it by months in order to try to force fans into subscribing to Space, then I can understand why people would try to change their Netflix region to UK instead. Personally, I'll just wait for it to be available legitimately, but I get why the super-fan doesn't see waiting months or paying $40+/month just to watch Star Trek (with commercials and on Space's schedule) as viable options.

But, the vast, vast majority of stuff that people pirate is available legally and legitimately here in Canada. Not everything should be available on Netflix for $10/month. If your excuse is that you don't want to pay $10 for Netflix and $8 for Crave and buy the occasional show individually, well, that I have no sympathy for. This stuff shouldn't be free. Pay for the things you value.
 
#97 ·
While i do have an android box, I do also pay for my TV subscription.
Mostly use it to catch up on things i forgot to PVR, not easily on on demand, etc.

I Know quite a few which are android only..
And I do often hear the argument "Why would you pay for cable when you can use this?" "no one should be paying for it anymore" etc.


I think many of these people do not realize, that the content creators, all get money back from the tv companies buying the channels, etc.

With no money IN.. they have no money to CREATE the content.
 
#98 ·
it is, imho, a great shame that during the FTA and later NAFTA negotiations that the whole of North America was not made into one copyright zone... that may not be the right term. That all content licensed anywhere in NA was licensed for both countries. I am sure the Canadian media companies and Maude Barlow would have gone berserk but life would be so much simpler now!
I wonder if that could be a tweak for Trump when dealing with Canada on NAFTA


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
#99 ·
Why should rights be sold on a territorial basis at all? It is an outdated model.

These same global businesses could just as easily market their content to individuals on a global basis.

Get rid of the non-value added, inefficient, incompetent middlemen.
 
#100 ·
Because delivery models operate on a regional basis. Really, Netflix is the only one trying to be truly global at scale with a subscription model, and if your only customer is Netflix, you don't exactly have much leverage when negotiating rights fees.

Of course the content creators could sell directly to consumers, but they don't want to do that for the same reason most content re-sellers don't want to go global - the economics don't work. Keep in mind that it's not as simple as allowing anyone to access your existing service. To be a global service that works at scale, you need to do all kinds of localization and language support. Differences in content are not the only reason Netflix localizes support. And if you're not getting ancillary benefits like bundling with your existing services in the region, then the value proposition for smaller regions drops dramatically.

And even if we put aside the fact that these creators often have extremely valuable relationships with cable/IPTV providers that they need to protect, that still ignores the most obvious reason why content studios don't sell directly: infrastructure. Most consumers don't want to watch by going to a website and paying to download AVI files. They want a simple streaming experience that works with their existing TV equipment. And they don't want two dozen janky apps that each have one show they're interested in. If you're one of the big players like Disney then maybe you can pull that off and compete with Netflix, but Sony has been trying something like that for years with Crackle and it has largely failed. And if Sony can't pull it off, how would you expect a small studio to do so?

I don't disagree that many of these distributors are doing a bad job on things that should be obvious. I think the Crave app is still bug-ridden and full of terrible interface paradigms. But, I've also subscribed to the Adult Swim streaming service directly from them, and their app is at least as bad, so that's not a solution either. In that case, I desperately wished Netflix was acting as a middle-man with their quality software delivering Adult Swim's content.
 
#101 ·
The bottom line is that content owners want regionalism and they base their business model on it. Even DVDs and BDs, that are sold globally by the studios, are marketed regionally. That way they can sell a movie for $1 in Asia, where they are trying to eliminate a serious piracy problem due to weak copyright laws, and $20 in NA and Europe where they know the market will bear it.

Competition for rights in countries like Canada inflate the price of content while countries with less competition get it cheaper. The fault is our own for creating an environment with rich broadcasters that bid up royalties and pass the costs on to consumers with impunity. As much as I like services like Netflix, we have to realize that it plays into the studios' business model of driving up prices by creating more competition for a product that has limited supply. The only positive it that Netflix puts pressure on Canadian broadcasters to compete at the low end of the market. As long has Canadian broadcasters have a majority market share, studios will act as a cartel to inflate prices in Canada.
 
#102 ·
While we don't stream as we already have too much stuff to watch with paying for two satellite subscriptions I do like the idea of getting content from the source and purchase keeper shows & movies on BD & UBD. I find myself deleting more shows & timers of the DVR and just buying each season on BD. So I can get the appeal of the android box and know people that use them. I won't be one of them.
 
#103 ·
I don't know if I am posting in the correct thread, but I am pretty sure I have the correct forum. The question I have is about Informir IPTV boxes. I saw a demo of one in a candy store, but could not get any good information from the salesperson. I googled the Infomir boxes and found out they are sold at Wintronics and Angel Electronics, both stores in the GTA. The other information I found out online is that the subscriptions for the IPTV service accessed by these boxes is $15/mo (also told to me at the candy store). The IPTV that is being accessed seems to be a reselling of US satellite services. Is this legal in Canada? How do the boxes hook up to your TV?
iptvexpress.ca seems to be a provider. Does anyone know anything about these boxes and services? Do they work through a Roku box, which I have?
 
#106 ·
Sale of Android boxes with Kodi and other add ons is now illegal in Canada.

I subscribe to an expensive cable and internet package. I do agree people should pay for the content they watch. I also feel that we should be able to watch what we want when we went. Like a lot of people, between work, kids activities, and just trying to spend quality time with the family. I have very limited time to actually watch TV. So I watch Netflix mostly. If the tv series I want to watch is not on Netflix, then I will watch it though Kodi. My thought is I'm paying for an expensive tv package anyways, so what's wrong with watching my content other places, like Kodi. I don't watch movies on Kodi. We usually rent our movies from iTunes. And no, I'm not catholic, or religious for that matter. But I still have high moral values. Something that is not limited to Religious people.
 
#107 ·
@jshel101 - so what you are saying is that you buy content from one person, and if they don't carry the content you want, it's OK to use Kodi?

So, I buy a lot of food at my local grocery store - but they don't sell tires for my car - it's OK for me to steal tires from someone else then since my grocery store doesn't have them?

Also, my grocery store isn't open after 9pm - so if I want food after 9pm, I should steal it from another source?

Theft is theft - isn't it?
 
#110 ·
So, I buy a lot of food at my local grocery store - but they don't sell tires for my car - it's OK for me to steal tires from someone else then since my grocery store doesn't have them?
This metaphor doesn't work for a few reasons. One, if you steal the tires, then the store doesn't have those tires to sell to someone else. But television isn't a zero sum game; if you steal a TV show, then the networks still have that show to sell to everyone else. Two, @jshel101's point was that he is paying for this. He pays to get those shows on cable TV, but through some combination of an inconvenient air time and his lack of a DVR or lack of time/motivation to program it, he is unable or unwilling to work around the TV channels' schedules.

This situation is similar to people who own old Nintendo cartridges downloading the ROMs of the games they own, or people who bypass the security on DVDs or Blu-Rays to rip them to a digital format. Officially, you're not supposed to do that. Even if that content is not available to you in the format you wish, the owners of that content would like to retain the right to potentially sell it you in that format in the future. On the other hand, if you paid for it, do you have no rights on how you should use it? And where do we draw the line? Is it okay to make a digital copy of a show you paid to watch on cable via something like a Hauppauge HDPVR, but not okay to download a version of a show you pay to watch on cable that someone else recorded that way? I'm not saying that he's necessarily right, I just don't think this is a black and white issue, ethically, by any means.
 
#108 ·
This needs to get back on the rails... Kodi itself is Not illegal. I use it to connect to my NAS for distribution of music and movies that are sitting on the server. The logic that Kodi is illegal is no different than saying Plex is illegal because it played a movie or TV show or whatever that you downloaded without paying for the content.
 
#109 ·
Sale of Android Boxes With "Free TV" Add-ons Is Now Illegal in Canada

This thread is poorly named and should be changed. It's not only inaccurate, it also misrepresents and defames the KODI project. The new law is not about KODI, it's about the "Free TV" add-ons that Android TV box resellers are installing.

The Piracy Box Sellers and YouTube Promoters Are Killing Kodi
 
#123 · (Edited)
This thread is poorly named and should be changed. It's not only inaccurate, it also misrepresents and defames the KODI project. The new law is not about KODI, it's about the "Free TV" add-ons that Android TV box resellers are installing.

The Piracy Box Sellers and YouTube Promoters Are Killing Kodi
Actually the article is about Kodi. The article clearly states that selling android boxes with loaded Kodi is illegal.
My thread starter is all about Kodi loaded with add-ons so there is no point reminding in every post that it is legal because in this case it is not legal at all.
If someone wants to start another thread about how Kodi can legally be used then go ahead and do it but do not change my thread because you do not agree with my opinion or the article that is in the link.
 
#111 ·
I think that may be more what he was trying to say.

I have one android box, which does have Kodi and a few of the apps on it (manually installed).
I also have rogers VIP cable.

Really mostly I use the Kodi box, like more full blown On Demand type device.

If i miss recording something (or the box screws up missing one :p), and i cant find it on RoD, i will go watch it from there.
 
#112 ·
What I am trying to say is that illegal content is illegal content - no matter how you slice and dice your reasoning for obtaining it.

The reasoning behind paying for it somewhere else and then using an illegal mean to download a copy isn't right. It contributes to the piracy system.

If I buy tickets for Air Canada to fly somewhere and I miss my flight, it doesn't mean that WestJet should be free for the same route. If I buy tickets for a Blue Jays game and don't go the night my tickets are for, I don't have a right to that seat for the next game.

A lot of content creators aren't making millions of dollars off their products - most are scraping by. A lot of TV content is made on a shoestring budget, and needs to be bought by consumers to allow the productions to continue and to develop future talent.

I'm not sure what others do for a living on this board, but if in your industry everyone was stealing your product or service, and your job was on the line, your company was scraping by because of piracy/theft, you would be upset at those who have a laissez-faire attitude to making your business fail and potentially losing your livelihood.

Not everyone in the TV game is a major multi-national - the majority are just small guys trying to squeak out a living.

I just ask that people think twice before taking content they didn't pay for - some of your favourite programs may disappear.
 
#115 ·
If I buy tickets for Air Canada to fly somewhere and I miss my flight, it doesn't mean that WestJet should be free for the same route. If I buy tickets for a Blue Jays game and don't go the night my tickets are for, I don't have a right to that seat for the next game.
Again, what you're describing is a zero-sum game, which TV is not. Here's a different analogy: if you order a pizza at home, but you only eat half, should you be able to eat the rest at work the next day? The pizza company, given the choice, would say no, they would rather you buy a new pizza to eat at work. But of course that's ridiculous: you bought the pizza, why shouldn't you be able to eat it wherever you want?

However, what if you signed a contract saying that you would only eat the pizza at home, and in exchange the pizza company slightly discounted the pizza for you? Now, I think it would clearly be wrong to eat the pizza at home. But, what if the pizza company refuses to sell you pizza unless you sign that contract? And, they refuse to deliver the kind of pizza you want to your work under any circumstances? So now you've paid for a pizza which you can't eat under the current rules, and you can't legally get that pizza at work.

Look, there are many different angles to this. I think, for example, that it's clearly wrong to say that FX costs too much, and to pirate The Americans while refusing to subscribe to the channel because your cable bill is "high enough already." However, I'm not convinced that it's clearly wrong, if you pay for FX but The Americans airs at an inconvenient time, to download episodes and watch them at your convenience instead.
 
#113 ·
Oh, i 100 agree.

There are too many people i see on facebook and other locations.. who promote the android boxes.. saying get this! why pay for cable anymore!
Many believe that the content IS free... and that the cable companies are being the evil ones charging for it.
They are not aware of the 'illegalness' OF using one of these.

Thats one of the key things i say..
If EVERYONE is doing it that way.. the content creators are not getting paid.. no money in, no creating more content.

Too many say "well the other guy will pay for it"



I think the cracking down on these boxes.. will at least LESSEN their coverage.. and help a little bit at least.
 
#114 ·
I agree with most of what everyone above said. I am not condoning theft of intellectual material. I just feel that if I already pay for an expensive cable package, I'm contributing to the licencing of these shows. I use my Gateway to record the shows I watch. However; there are times when I feel like watching an entire series that I can't watch from cable, or not on Netflix, as it is no longer available. I have bought TV series from iTunes when they are on sale, but it would be very expensive if I wanted to buy all of the series I want to watch. I can use Shaw VOD to watch some of the current season of a show, but not the past seasons. For example; my wife wanted to watch the ER series again. She bought the first season off of iTunes, but it would have been cost prohibitive to buy the entire series from iTunes. So she watched it from Kodi. I already pay over $1K per year just for cable. Plus the amount we pay for Netflix and the movies/TV Shows we purchase. How much more do I have to pay?

As some people have stated in this thread already, if there was a cheaper way to watch the shows I want to watch, when I want to watch them, then I would do that. I have no intention of cutting the cord and not pay for cable. I believe we should all pay for the content, at a reasonable cost.
 
#117 · (Edited)
You are right they are not doing anything illegal because there is no clear law in Canada against streaming. Although if the source of their streams is Bell for example then I am pretty sure that Bell could take those individuals to court if they had enough evidence.
You on the other hand are clearly breaking the law by selling android devices and loaded software like Kodi and add-ons.
I mention Kodi because it is the piracy tool to load and view add-ons but it is not illegal on it's own.
 
#120 ·
You don't need Kodi to watch MLB.TV with an android box legally...lots of apps supplied by MLB for any device...

I like lobbing the odd bomb into this conversation to keep it going...

It will start to get interesting with the "illegal" use of Kodi when the Canadian government and ISPs start getting on board with what is happening in the UK. Lots of websites with copyrighted, or instructions/links to copyrighted material are blocked by ISPs under order of the UK government.

I've had to file takedown notices for YouTube and other video websites in the past for copyrighted material I own - it is a very time consuming process, and must be costly for some content providers where every 10 minutes someone is posting there content. I can't imagine how bad the paperwork process would be to block an IP address or URL - especially with the Canadian government.

At the end of the day, once it costs content providers to make content, and struggle through all the legal requirements to protect it, they will quit the business. The music industry probably has a 10 year head start on the film/tv industry in how much less revenue they make, as well as how much less product they produce.
 
#121 ·
The music industry probably has a 10 year head start on the film/tv industry in how much less revenue they make
The real question is "How much has the music industry cratered? I'm NOT convinced it has, if you look at the following chart it shows a marked decline when the entire economy TANKED.

After surprising growth in 2015, music industry seeks fairer*revenues - The Globe and Mail

If you remember the early to mid 80's recession (nothing like the bubble burst of 2008) a similar trend happened, music sales decreased or remained flat, but then low and behold it exploded when the economy improved and the CD replacement cycle (of vinyl) began, that cycle was not repeated with digital.

The following charts show that.

The Perfect Bubble: 1985-2000 | The Piracy Crusade | MediaCommons Press

I'm NOT convinced the recording industry suffered some "catastrophic loss" from pirating and I don't believe the movie/tv industry is either. Here is a list of the domestic box office in the US by year, notice the big dip in ticket sales but revenue was actually up since the recession, in other words they JACKED the prices which fewer people can afford.

The Numbers - Movie Market Summary 1995 to 2017

If the industry was honest the greatest level of piracy happens in China, India etc, not the domestic market but we are naturally the scapegoats due to the windfall presented by litigation.
 
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