Canadians are ¯stealing¯ U.S. Netflix content: Bell - Page 3 - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

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post #31 of 84 (permalink) Old 2015-06-05, 06:31 PM
 
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Bevfan,

You didn't rest your case, you lost it. Nice straw man ad hominem btw.

It is because of differences in US levels of government that your argument about (unspecified) international treaties loses all meaning when they are unenforceable. And you reveal that you know this.
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post #32 of 84 (permalink) Old 2015-06-05, 06:36 PM
 
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MEMO to Corporate-Media Elites: You don't own us!

Like apartheid and 'separate but (un)equal,' the practice of geoblocking is indefensible. For Bell's corporate mouthpiece to accuse people of stealing something that is being unfairly denied to them feels like being told that we should be happy to be ordered to sit in the back of the bus just because Bell bought the rights to it.

All consumers should take a stand against this kind of bullying. There is simply no justification for greedy copyright holders to impose restrictions on sales to consumers based on their location. A fair price for one is a fair price for all - don't discriminate.
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post #33 of 84 (permalink) Old 2015-06-05, 06:49 PM
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It is not all about Bell or Rogers but international laws and agreements.

Geo-blocking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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post #34 of 84 (permalink) Old 2015-06-05, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bev fan View Post
The Internet is not geoblocked but the content is. Netflix could go after people who use VPN or DNS to bypass geoblocking like HBO does. Netflix chooses not to, therefore breaking international laws. Bell could go after them for allowing their customers to get access to the content in Canada that Bell or Rogers have exclusive rights to.
I'm not aware of a single international law that is violated by the use of VPNs or other tools to circumvent geoblocking. Can you name one, or provide any supporting evidence to that effect?

We've always been very clear: we do not allow discussion of satellite or content piracy because those are illegal. However, we've never seem any evidence that these services violate any law, including copyright law.

They might village Netflix's terms of use, but that's entirely up to Netflix to enforce or not. And they might violate content deals between Netflix and the content owners, but that's entirely up to the content owners to pursue. Again, unless Bell or Rogers are involved in those content licensing agreements, how do they pursue Netflix?
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post #35 of 84 (permalink) Old 2015-06-05, 07:30 PM
 
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Welcome to the Internet TV streaming providers forum sponsored by https://www.vpnauthority.com/

That's the header on this forum.

TorontoColin is 100% correct, we "might" be violating Netflix's TOU but as it stands they don't care a whit.

bev fan, does Bell pay you for these ridiculous posts or are you trying to earn a move up the corporate ladder from store sales?

Either way it's a huge fail.
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post #36 of 84 (permalink) Old 2015-06-05, 07:39 PM
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@TorontoColin
Basically using VPN may not be illegal but many countries are working on new laws to make it illegal.
Geo-blocking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, using VPN to obtain geoblocked content may be illegal in many countries under copyright laws, more in the above link.

There are many discussion on this site forums about obtaining content illegally by doing downloads using VPN or how to stream copy protected content by using cheap media players after installing different programs. If that is not piracy then I trully do not know what is.

By being attacked from different sides it just reinforces my belief on how content theft is morally acceptable in this country.
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post #37 of 84 (permalink) Old 2015-06-05, 07:54 PM
 
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How exactly would they go about this?
TorontoColin, there are some very simple ways that Netflix could stop the majority of it. As an old-timer who remembers the cross-border satellite Wars of 95 to 02, I can think of four or five ways!
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post #38 of 84 (permalink) Old 2015-06-05, 07:55 PM
 
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Bev...please!
reading the link you provided under "Legality and enforcement": there are just as many countries that are objecting to unnecessary geo-blocking tactics. Australia has ruled that VPN usage is not illegal.

More fear mongering! EU is working to eliminate geo blocking. Those countries that are considering legal action against vpn's are promoting protectionism lobbying.
I dont want Canada to be governed by those that are most ready to benefit!

We need a big push-back. Sony is against circumventing geo-blocking; Its no surprise that Bell Media is against it. (Both Sony and Bell Media are content owners).

We should create a new lobby ourselves to disconnect Content Providers from Content Owners. This is the protectionism that Bell desperately wants to retain.

EC
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post #39 of 84 (permalink) Old 2015-06-05, 08:17 PM
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How convenient that you do not mention that Australia is working on a new law which would make using VPN illegal in that country. There are many countries including European Union that are in process of changing their laws to stop VPN practice.

Last edited by bev fan; 2015-06-05 at 10:15 PM.
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post #40 of 84 (permalink) Old 2015-06-05, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bev fan View Post
@TorontoColin
Basically using VPN may not be illegal but many countries are working on new laws to make it illegal.
Geo-blocking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, using VPN to obtain geoblocked content may be illegal in many countries under copyright laws, more in the above link.
But Canada is not one of those. Neither, for that matter, is the US, where Netflix is based. So if, say, Australia made circumventing Netflix's geoblocks illegal, how would that help Bell and Rogers?

And again, you said that Bell and Rogers should go after Netflix for this. My question is still how?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bev fan View Post
There are many discussion on this site forums about obtaining content illegally by doing downloads using VPN or how to stream copy protected content by using cheap media players after installing different programs. If that is not piracy then I trully do not know what is.
If they are illegal, then report them. I regularly remove posts that discuss illegal sources and services for pirating content. However, as someone who doesn't use these services, I'm only familiar with the most notorious ones, and there are too many to keep up with.

If they are not illegal but simply potentially unethical, like accessing Hulu via VPNs, then they are permitted here. You don't have to use our discuss them, but others are allowed to do so.

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Originally Posted by tech40 View Post
TorontoColin, there are some very simple ways that Netflix could stop the majority of it.
Sure, but my question wasn't how can Netflix do this, but rather how could Bell and Rogers "go after" Netflix for not doing so?

I cannot imagine them convincing the federal government to get involved, given the public support for Netflix (not to mention the public dislike of Bell and Rogers). The only group I can see motivating Netflix to change is the content owners. Do the big, predominantly American content owners care enough about their Canadian broadcast deals with Bell and Rogers to risk their deals with Netflix? I don't know.

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post #41 of 84 (permalink) Old 2015-06-05, 10:04 PM
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It is simple, Rogers and Bell hold rights in Canada for different content. Netflix does not have the rights to sell that content in Canada.
But the content is easily available to Canadians by bypassing geoblocking therefore this makes very likely than Netflix is gaining extra Canadian customers and Canadian providers losing them. Technology exists that would enable Netflix to stop this practice but it chooses not to do it. Netflix could be breaking copyright laws by doing that and if this would end up in court, anything could happen.

There is a chance that Netflix could lose, or it would remedy the problem instead going to court. I think that if Canadian providers could prove it that Netflix is doing it intentionally, they could win the case. I am not a lawyer so I do not know if there is a legitimate case but this is just my opinion.

My point is that there does not have to be a law in place against VPN to prove that this tool is used for piracy but the case should be build using copyrights laws and not the tool that allows a person to do it.
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post #42 of 84 (permalink) Old 2015-06-05, 10:06 PM
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We pay Netflix, and they keep track of which shows are being watched and how may times and, based on those numbers they pay the content owners a pre-agreed amount of money. Who, exactly, are we stealing content from? It's not content that's being stolen. Distribution rights are all about the middleman but the internet does not require a middleman. Back in the day there may have been a need for the middleman (e.g. you wanted a fur coat to wear in England, and you did not want to hop on a ship to the Colonies, then you paid a premium to the trader who did the traveling and bartering for you. What they are doing here with geo-blocking is just perpetuating an artificially created middleman. There is no need other than greed.

All you have to do is look at the balance sheet of Bell and Rogers to see that they are not suffering. How can that be, though, as we are just now beginning to come out of a recession that lasted for over a decade? People have lost jobs, their homes and lifestyle they've gotten accustomed to while these companies continued to make record profits all through the downturn. Bell is not speaking out on behalf of the content owners -- the creative folk that provide the entertainment. They are just pissed that their Crave TV service can only compete against Neflix Canada, but not against Netflix US. Purely selfish motives.
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post #43 of 84 (permalink) Old 2015-06-05, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bev fan View Post
It is simple, Rogers and Bell hold rights in Canada for different content. Netflix does not have the rights to sell that content in Canada.
But the content is easily available to Canadians by bypassing geoblocking therefore this makes very likely than Netflix is gaining extra Canadian customers and Canadian providers losing them. Technology exists that would enable Netflix to stop this practice but it chooses not to do it. Netflix could be breaking copyright laws by doing that and if this would end up in court, anything could happen.

There is a chance that Netflix could lose, or it would remedy the problem instead going to court. I think that if Canadian providers could prove it that Netflix is doing it intentionally, they could win the case. I am not a lawyer so I do not know if there is a legitimate case but this is just my opinion.

My point is that there does not have to be a law in place against VPN to prove that this tool is used for piracy but the case should be build using copyrights laws and not the tool that allows a person to do it.
Copyright law? How???! The production companies, actors, writers, etc. are getting paid by Neflix. Using a VPN or DNS is not piracy. If it wasn't for the fact that Bell and Rogers are the only alternatives here then I wouldn't be using either of them. The Canadian government and the CRTC are simply not doing their job. These duopolies need to be taken behind the toolshed and given the whatfor.
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post #44 of 84 (permalink) Old 2015-06-05, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bev fan View Post
It is simple, Rogers and Bell hold rights in Canada for different content. Netflix does not have the rights to sell that content in Canada.
But the content is easily available to Canadians by bypassing geoblocking therefore this makes very likely than Netflix is gaining extra Canadian customers and Canadian providers losing them. Technology exists that would enable Netflix to stop this practice but it chooses not to do it. Netflix could be breaking copyright laws by doing that and if this would end up in court, anything could happen.

There is a chance that Netflix could lose, or it would remedy the problem instead going to court. I think that if Canadian providers could prove it that Netflix is doing it intentionally, they could win the case. I am not a lawyer so I do not know if there is a legitimate case but this is just my opinion.

My point is that there does not have to be a law in place against VPN to prove that this tool is used for piracy but the case should be build using copyrights laws and not the tool that allows a person to do it.
Who gave them that right? What did they do to earn that right? Why wasn't I, the consumer ultimately affected by this, given an opportunity to speak out against this in the first place? Why am I, the consumer, not given the option of chosing a different company to supply this content? As someone already mentioned, I can go to Chapters or Amazon.ca or my local Blockbuster/Walmart/whatever and purchase these programs on DVD or BluRay. No single store holds exclusive content rights. Why is it any different for streaming content? Who made the differentiation in the first place? Why did they do it? In whose interest were those decisions made? Why should we be forced to use -- and pay -- a middleman where there is not need for this middleman? All of this needs to come under review.
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post #45 of 84 (permalink) Old 2015-06-05, 11:25 PM
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But you can't make VPNs illegal ...
I said nothing about making them VPNs illegal. I merely said that companies selling VPN services are being regulated. VPN companies operating in Canada are now required to keep a log of customer activities. Canada could pass a law making it illegal for Canadians to stream copyrighted material, such as TV shows and movies, from other countries by using a VPN. Depending on how it is worded, that could allow companies like Bell to go after companies and individuals who stream content for which Bell has purchased the rights in Canada. Bell could, for example, sue Netflix by claiming that it hasn't done enough to prevent it's customers from using proxies to obtain content for which Bell owns the Canadian rights. I don't see it happening anytime soon but it could happen.

Just the threat of a law suit or other sanctions can make companies like Netflix introduce new restrictions their services. Such threats of sanctions could as easily emanate from studios that want to protect their own revenue sources as it could from Bell. Either way, consumers lose while the studios and Canadian broadcasters win big by locking Canadians into traditional, overpriced broadcasting services.
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