Court quashes Tory cabinet’s Globalive decision (overturned) - Page 6 - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums
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post #76 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-12, 07:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rockjock View Post
Rob the law is stupid. Great legal defense. Your Honor.. The law is stupid. We at Wind rest.

Really now Rob That is all you have? It is a stupid law.
First of all, it was not WIND that was the subject of the court case it was the Governor General in Council (aka the Cabinet and in particular the Industry Minister). WIND does not need to make any defense; at least not yet. It is the gov't that believes the law is "stupid" or they might use some more politically-correct language and call it "no longer appropriate". This is not a point for challenging the law in court, it is a point for political justification to amend the Act.

Of course there is another alternative - the government steps back, does nothing, in 45 days WIND is out of time and must have new investors or stop operating. That is almost certainly not going to happen.

The reality is that the gov't is firmly on the side of opening up foreign investment and competition in the wireless telco market and has clearly implied their position with the Cabinet decision on WIND (the CRTC ruling, really). So, the only realistic alternatives are the ones the gov't will seek to have its policy become law. Appeal and have their decision upheld, or change the legislation because they (the Cabinet) believes the law is "stupid".
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post #77 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-13, 10:43 PM
 
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If this is not a court case for wind why is it Wind has to file an appeal? seems to me it is all about Wind. It is the government that thinks the law is stupid? I have said it several times there is no Foreign ownership law for the telcos it is for all industry. You can not change it for one and not the others. And since it works just fine, evidence of the other 3 entrants having no issues getting to market, why change it? No one seems to address that simple fact. The only ones that seem to think the law stupid are those that are on wind and hope they can keep the cheap plans they have. Government wanted competition and they have it. 4 entered 4 are in market 1 does not comply.. that to me is more competition.. By your definition there is more competition now. The excuse they should be exempt because they had bigger plans is silly. They need to become compliant. If they can not. They need to face the consequences. It is just that simple.
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post #78 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-14, 12:38 AM
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Wind's appeal is about whether cabinet can overturn the CRTC decision, it is not directly related to their compliance. Robsaw is correct, they do not (at this time) need to defend themselves with regard to their compliance. They're appealing because this ruling directly affects them.
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post #79 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-14, 01:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockjock View Post
If this is not a court case for wind why is it Wind has to file an appeal? seems to me it is all about Wind. It is the government that thinks the law is stupid? I have said it several times there is no Foreign ownership law for the telcos it is for all industry.
WIND does not have to file an appeal. The gov't itself, or any affected party, can file an appeal. I think the gov't itself is the most likely to appeal.

You can repeat it as many times as you want - you are incorrect. The specific law in question here is for Telecom only and it arises specifically from the Telecom Act - no other industry is in question here with this court case. There are similar laws for broadcasting, publishing, and certain forms of transport (aviation and some rail, shipping) but those are irrelevant with respect to WIND.
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post #80 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-14, 10:28 PM
 
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Rob I am sorry you are mistaken. Simply put. The law is the one for ALL businesses. It has been stated time and time again.. There is no specific telecom law, that is why the CRTC sighted the canwest ruling If I remember right. I know I am correct about the law because I have had some direct dealings in a different field. The decision to quash the previous ruling is interesting but you mistaken if you think Wind has nothing to do. The only reason there needed to be a decision was because of the noncompliance eliminate that and you have no need for an appeal. No one then looks the fool. But Colin does raise a very interesting point.. maybe they can not become compliant.. in that case they have to hope the law is changed. This is highly doubtful because all of the new players can cry foul.. as well as the big 3.

interesting times ahead gentlemen..
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post #81 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-14, 10:43 PM
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CanWest is a publishing/broadcasting company and thus falls under similar Canadian ownership rules.

Look at the Beer Store in Ontario. It is owned 49% by Labatt (Belgian), 49% by Molson Coors (American) and 2% by Sleeman (Japanese). It is now wholly foreign owned, but still allowed to operate in Canada.

George Gillet, though an American, was allowed to own 80% of the Montreal Canadians and the Bell Centre.

Target just recently bought Zellers from HBC, which is itself owned by Americans. If the rules are the same, why can Target operate here but Verizon cannot?

Though their may be different guidelines on how to operate in Canada, clearly foreign ownership is allowed in other industries.
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post #82 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-15, 12:28 PM
 
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Globalive ruling to be appealed by Ottawa

Last Updated: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 | 12:18 PM ET
CBC News
Ottawa will appeal the Federal Court ruling on Feb. 4 striking down cabinet's 2009 decision allowing Globalive to launch its Wind Mobile wireless brand, Industry Minister Tony Clement said Tuesday.

Clement said Globalive does qualify as a Canadian company under the Telecommunications Act, and the government wants to foster consumer choice and competition.

More to come

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2011/0...#ixzz1E38gw7zB
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post #83 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-15, 12:42 PM
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from CBC article

Quote:
Journalists asked Clement on Tuesday why the government doesn't change the law, instead of challenging a regulatory ruling and a court interpretation of existing legislation.
Exactly! The reason, I believe they won't change the law is that it would highlight the fact that the overturning of the CRTC's decision was an "error in law."



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post #84 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-15, 03:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rockjock View Post
Rob I am sorry you are mistaken. Simply put. The law is the one for ALL businesses.
OH GOOD GRIEF?!?!?!?

You are wrong - get over it!

Please go read the telecom act.

Please go read the CRTC ruling and the legislation referenced in it.

Please go read the Federal Court application and the legislation referenced in it.

The one and only act referenced is the Telecom Act.

Your assertions about the applicable law, law in different fields, what WIND has to do are 100% incorrect.

Oh, and the Minister of Industry announced they (the gov't) is appealing the Federal Court ruling. (already previously noted, but posted again to show where you are wrong that WIND is the one that had to appeal).

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2011/0...ve-appeal.html
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post #85 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-15, 04:02 PM
 
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For the less than well informed here are some references on this case:

CRTC Decision:
http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2009/2009-678.htm
"..met the Canadian ownership and control requirements of section 16 of the Telecommunications Act (the Act).""
Note that the spectrum auction bid was under the Radiocommunication Act.

Federal Court:
http://cas-ncr-nter03.cas-satj.gc.ca...urt_no=T-26-10
"...provided for in the Telecommunications Act S.C. 1993, c. 38; 3..."
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post #86 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-15, 10:16 PM
 
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Rob as usual you have shot wide. Ownership and control are the issues here. the CTRC found that they are not in compliance. The CRTC clearly states that orascom runs the show, has all the debt and all the control.. therefore they own wind. Globe and Mail in Toronto stated Orascom has 90% of the debt but on the planet Rob that means nothing. They even outline what Orascom was to do for Globalive. In a nutshell it was everything. And yet again the ownership/control is across the board. All companies must adhere. Colin you have some excellent examples.. but much like rob your shot missed the mark. Beer store is a excellent example. But since the ownership is a tad questionable the board of directors, voting shares, debt guidelines etc are well above board. You forgot to mention Gm or Honda.. ( I have personal knowledge in this field and I can assure you they had so many hoops to jump through and made promises it was not funny ) they followed the same rules.. They never hid behind the other tonys skirt.

To me it is simple. Wind must comply. Change the law? Sure for the next Spectrum Auction. That way all the entrants get a fair shake. Open the floodgates.

Last edited by TorontoColin; 2011-02-15 at 11:01 PM.
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post #87 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-16, 02:04 AM
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Pulled straight from the Government of Canada's website, here is a list of industries in which foreign ownership has special additional regulations:
Quote:
Broadcasting
The federal Broadcasting Act provides that broadcasting licences may not be issued to non-Canadians or to companies that are effectively owned or controlled, directly or indirectly, by non-Canadians.

Telecommunications
The federal Telecommunications Act restricts foreign ownership to 20% of the shares of a telecommunications common carrier.

Other Industries
Other industries where foreign investment is currently affected by federal or provincial regulation include
  • Aviation,
  • Book publishing and selling,
  • Collection agencies,
  • Engineering,
  • Farming,
  • Fisheries,
  • Liquor sales,
  • Mining,
  • Oil and gas,
  • Optometry,
  • Pharmacies, and
  • Securities dealers.
This article discusses the foreign ownership regulations in the telecom industry.
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post #88 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-16, 01:14 PM
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post #89 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-16, 02:59 PM
 
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Rockjock - my entire point is about what legislation is involved in this particular case. It is the Telecom Act and nothing else. Whether we want to agree/disagree on what anyone should do about it (the gov't, Wind, Orascomm) is a point of opinion. Whether WIND is or is not in compliance with the law is an open question until the court case is settled through to all avenues of appeal.

Whether liquor stores, GM, Honda, airlines, etc are governed by SIMILAR legislation is an interesting but irrelevant matter to this particular case as they are governed by completely separate legislation with many varying terms.

If you want to express a political opinion on the law or a personal opinion on what any of the parties should or shouldn't do be my guest - but there is no point over arguing the legal facts of what legislation is in play here - it is the Telecom Act and nothing else.

I'm done.
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post #90 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-16, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockjock View Post

To me it is simple. Wind must comply. Change the law? Sure for the next Spectrum Auction. That way all the entrants get a fair shake. Open the floodgates.
The Spectrum Auction is irrelevant.

AFAIK, the spectrum auction is under the RadioCommunications Act, and regulated by IC.

Operation as a (wireless) Telecommunications common Carrier is under the Telecommunications Act, regulated by the CRTC.
Someone who wants to buy spectrum in order to operate as a common carrier needs to get all their ducks in row.
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