Court quashes Tory cabinet’s Globalive decision (overturned) - Page 2 - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums
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post #16 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-05, 12:14 AM
 
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If the Government wants to change the rules that is fine. Write a new law and pass it with a majority in Parliament. That is how our democracy is supposed to work. Instead they tried to just use the powers of cabinet to over rule the law of the land. That simply isn't fair, legal or right. This government has done both good and bad and I don't want to demonize anyone or get into political choices but if you want to make a change you need to respect the system and change the laws. Cabinet cannot run the country on it's own (especially when they do not have a Majority Government).

This is the right decision mostly because it recognizes that Wind didn't have to play by the rules. Wind has managed to build a much larger network much faster thanks to the money they could get from overseas. Everyone else had to play by the rules and keep their ownership Canadian. If we want to open up the ownership rules that is a change that should be debated and the law should be changed but individual companies should not be given a pass that doesn't apply to others.
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post #17 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-05, 10:43 AM
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The court basically decided that the federal government doesn't have the authority to overturn the foreign ownership rules. Parliament does, so expect the government to attempt to bring in legislation to change the foreign ownership rules. However, don't expect an attempt to dissolve the CRTC with a minority government.

I don't think Globalive is going away, it's too late for that. They'll just have to find a legal way around the current rules. And if they are forced out, they are well within their rights to sue the government (though I doubt they would win) for telling them they can operate when they did not have the power to do so and costing them millions in network infrastructure investments.

For the record, Wind is continuing to operate business as usual in the meantime and is actually adding staff, particular at their Mississauga call centre, as well as continuing to add towers.

Last edited by TorontoColin; 2011-02-05 at 12:04 PM.
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post #18 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-05, 02:57 PM
 
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Find a legal way around it? So you are saying they have to bend the rules because they are guilty? I took the announcement as the matter was looked into and indeed Wind did not comply and they had 45 days to do so or... close up shop? Thew fact is At the 11th ours after everyone else followed the rules Wind pulls a camel out of a tent and gets past everyone? And that is ok with you? Really?

And the assumption they have invested too much to be stopped now.. back up Orascom invested and still owns the equipment. They will simply take back the roof top units that they like to call antennas and go home., it is not like the first batch of equipment was new in a box, it can be reused again.

And the thought its business as usual? Skeleton staff and now they recall some staff ? Come on.. All this smacks in the face of logic..

Last edited by TorontoColin; 2011-02-05 at 03:19 PM. Reason: Unnecessary quote
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post #19 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-05, 03:40 PM
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By legal way around it I mean they need to work within the laws to make themselves compliant. Alternatively, the Conservatives could attempt to change the laws to allow Wind to operate.

I'm fine with the court's ruling, they applied the law to this case fairly, as far as I'm concerned. However, I'm also fine with parliament changing the law to allow Wind to operate. If they feel the old law is archaic and unnecessary, and that changing it is in the best interests of this country, then that's what they should do.

Orascom cannot simply reclaim Globalive's equipment, that's not the way indirect equity works. And as they cannot really be bought by the Big Three under the terms of the spectrum auction, more likely is that the government buys them out and Wind temporarily becomes a Crown corporation, until the government can resell them. It's not a great analogy, but look at what happened to the Phoenix Coyotes in the NHL. However, all of this is much less likely than them simply finding a way for Globalive to survive.

Believe me, they're running at full staff. Their call centres are overloaded (which they've acknowledged) but that's because of new subs, not staff cutbacks, and it takes time to train new call centre staff. Apparently they're not thrilled with the quality they're getting from the Egypt call centre, so they're trying to add more in-house staff, but it takes more time to hire and train those, unlike contracted call centres which in theory have experienced staff hired and ready.
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post #20 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-05, 07:25 PM
 
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Work within the laws to become compliant? Were they not supposed to be compliant from the beginning? Did the CRTC tell them several times they were not compliant? This is not just about wireless, the rules can not be bent at a whim? And I have it from people in wind that wind is running on a skeleton staff, but the fact that they are swamped NOW does not explain why the call centers were outsourced months ago. Indirect equity? Orascom owns the equipment. Orascom bought the equipment, Orascom shipped the equipment and Orascom paid to have the equipment installed. .. So yes Orascom owns it. As far as being bought by the big 3.. That is a grey area while they can not go to Globalive and buy it from them.. it can be bought from the creditor. See that way you can go around the law and get it. hey! its good enough for Wind as you say. Now why would the government buy Wind? I mean there are provisions in place if you do not comply. You would have the government run wind until they sell it? Interesting idea.. flawed but interesting.

What I have to ask is.. you seem to agree that Wind broke the rules and you want someone to bail them out. Why is this?

Last edited by TorontoColin; 2011-02-06 at 03:14 AM. Reason: removed unnecessary quote
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post #21 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-05, 07:36 PM
 
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Here's (http://www.scribd.com/doc/48179304/T-26-10-Judgment) the 60 pages of reasons and decision by the judge.

Boils down to the Governor in Council cannot read in policy not already in the Act.
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post #22 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-05, 07:56 PM
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Some of you should be over in the UBB thread supporting the CRTC decision too!

Harper took a short cut to get a little competition into our wonderfully locked up Canadian telecommunications industry, knowing full well the outcome if it went to the courts. They rolled the dice. So now if they're forced to change the law they'll need the support of the opposition parties. If Canadians support a more competitive telecommunications industry then the opposition will have no choice but to support Harper. If not, shutdown Wind Mobile and we go back to the status quo. If the Tories tried to change the law first, it would have never passed with all the opposition bickering. Harper has forced the issue if nothing else. Sometimes the system needs a cowboy.

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post #23 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-05, 08:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by scrooloose View Post
Some of you should be over in the UBB thread supporting the CRTC decision too!

Harper took a short cut to get a little competition into our wonderfully locked up Canadian telecommunications industry, knowing full well the outcome if it went to the courts. They rolled the dice. So now if they're forced to change the law they'll need the support of the opposition parties. If Canadians support a more competitive telecommunications industry then the opposition will have no choice but to support Harper. If not, shutdown Wind Mobile and we go back to the status quo. If the Tories tried to change the law first, it would have never passed with all the opposition bickering. Harper has forced the issue if nothing else. Sometimes the system needs a cowboy.

-Mike
Mike it is not just about cellular. Competition by bending the rules. By hook or by crook? This goes across the board. Globalive was warned they were not compliant and they did nothing, they were told that all of the debt was held by Orascom and they should remedy that.. they did not. and now they will cry foul? Change the laws? Hmm interesting.. but how about changing them for the next auction. Why should Wind benefit for some back room deal and the other new players not? Do take a moment and apply this to something else. We all agree to play by the same rules and at the last moment I decided that I am better than you and I will have the rules bent for my benefit. Then it comes to light and I begin to cry foul.. sure I cheated, yes I bent the rules and yes it was not fair.. BUT I will still complain.

Now I was under the impression that everyone knew what the ownership rules were, that all the new players knew how much foreign control/ownership/control they could have? So why did not one tell wind all this? Why were they not told!!! Oh wait.. they were.. they just felt the rules did not apply to them??
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post #24 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-05, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrooloose View Post
If Canadians support a more competitive telecommunications industry then the opposition will have no choice but to support Harper. If not, shutdown Wind Mobile and we go back to the status quo. If the Tories tried to change the law first, it would have never passed with all the opposition bickering. Harper has forced the issue if nothing else. Sometimes the system needs a cowboy.

-Mike
Even if the opposition agrees (and we all know that's not a given) how long would this take anyway? Rewriting the Telecom Act sounds like a multi-year effort to me. I could be wrong of course but the government usually isn't a model speed and efficiency...
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post #25 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-05, 10:32 PM
 
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Globalive WAS told they were compliant by Industry Canada when bidding on the spectrum auction. Then they were told by the CRTC when it came to final licensing they they were not compliant (after several months of informal questioning and modest changes to WIND's ownership structure). The problem is that IC's decision was basically an "opinion" as they don't have quasi-judicial status with respect to spectrum auction, whereas the CRTC has quasi-judicial status in many areas, including this particular case.

So, given the history, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that the Fed's will do one or more of: appeal, revise the legislation, pass a special act just for this case, or ? I can't see the Fed's providing bridge-funding while WIND seeks other Canadian investors to comply with the Act and CRTC decision as written.
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post #26 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-05, 11:08 PM
 
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Rob excellent point! but just 1/2 the point. Globalive was told they would have to pass both standards. IC standard and the CRTC standard. I have asked you this before. How is it that the other new entrants were able to secure funding, keep the content within the rules and pass both standards? Since all the new entrants knew they would need to be compliant, were the people employed by the other entrants smarter than those of Globalive? Were the rules written in some long lost ancient sand-script that Globalive could not understand? How is it Globalive needed some back room deal, that was subsequently sealed so that the details never see the light of day so they could come to market??

But lets make it far more simple. Why do you feel that the rules need to be changed to accommodate Wind while the other entrants had to adhere to them?
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post #27 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-05, 11:46 PM
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Either Globalive needs to change the way they are operating or the government needs to change the law. It's as simple as that. I agree with the court ruling. Canadians don't want MPs deciding who can break the law and who can't. There is enough government corruption already without that. OTOH, good luck getting more competition and investment in Canada after this fiasco.

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post #28 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-06, 02:41 AM
 
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Bob I do not see that as a problem at all.. many companies have come to Canada and have done quite well. The rules for ownership have worked and continue to work. This whole wind joke could have been solved right from the get go if Globalive had gotten funding. Public did it.. Mobli did.. so did videotron.. are they better than wind? smarter? The CRTC told them as much.. fix the control issue and we are good.. they did not.. yet again the CRTC said gents Orascom still holds all the debt.. fix it.. they did not.. then some back room deal happens and they are allowed to go to market... fair? just? not really..


If the other entrants could follow the rules why could Globalive not? If they could all get funding and stay with in the control issues guidelines why could Globalive not?

I wonder how did VW, Porsche, Volvo, Toyota, Bosch, Philips, Honda, Snap-on, wallmart, cosco, lafarge, bass pro shops and the list goes on make it so they could set up shop here? Did they all know tony clements? Did they get back room deals? No they followed the guidelines and wanted to do business here. So lets bend them so some guy who's business plan was so good, so revolutionary, so spectacular, so overwhelmingly genus like that he was laughed out of banks, trust companies and investment firms. Yes lets!
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post #29 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-06, 03:29 AM
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Work within the laws to become compliant? Were they not supposed to be compliant from the beginning? Did the CRTC tell them several times they were not compliant? This is not just about wireless, the rules can not be bent at a whim?
That's irrelevant now. They have 45 days to make themselves compliant. That's now all that matters to their continued existence.

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And I have it from people in wind that wind is running on a skeleton staff, but the fact that they are swamped NOW does not explain why the call centers were outsourced months ago.
The first time they were swamped they outsourced to the Peterborough call centre. That worked well enough, so the next time they were swamped they outsourced to an Egyptian call centre (just one). Apparently they weren't nearly as happy with the result, so they are looking at local options now, preferably in-house.

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Indirect equity? Orascom owns the equipment. Orascom bought the equipment, Orascom shipped the equipment and Orascom paid to have the equipment installed. .. So yes Orascom owns it.
That is not the way indirect equity works. Globalive bought those things with the money Orascom invested. They cannot simply take their equipment. In the event of bankruptcy they would become the largest creditor, assets would be liquidated, and they would get their allotted amount. Now sure they could work out some complicated scheme where by Globalive sells it to Orascom and uses the money to pay Orascom for their debts, but I'm not even sure if that's legal.

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Now why would the government buy Wind? I mean there are provisions in place if you do not comply. You would have the government run wind until they sell it? Interesting idea.. flawed but interesting.

What I have to ask is.. you seem to agree that Wind broke the rules and you want someone to bail them out. Why is this?
The government might buy Wind to save face and to keep the competition they so desired alive. It would more likely work like the auto bailouts rather than full-scale takeover. Personally I want Wind to survive because they're helping lower mobile rates in Canada. Without the combined marketing and work of the new entrants there is no chatr for example.
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post #30 of 124 (permalink) Old 2011-02-06, 07:12 AM Thread Starter
 
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I wonder how did VW, Porsche, Volvo, Toyota, Bosch, Philips, Honda, Snap-on, wallmart, cosco, lafarge, bass pro shops and the list goes on make it so they could set up shop here? Did they all know tony clements? Did they get back room deals? No they followed the guidelines and wanted to do business here. So lets bend them so some guy who's business plan was so good, so revolutionary, so spectacular, so overwhelmingly genus like that he was laughed out of banks, trust companies and investment firms. Yes lets!
Rockjock, the difference is that the companies you mention were NOT in the "space" reserved by nationalists for Canadian companies...no matter how much some other car companies etc. would like to have stopped them coming here.
This situation is more analogous to: Publishing where Amazon .ca are being allowed to "break the rules" and I am surprised that has not caused a major fuss, or in another sense, the Emirate airline dispute.

I don't think that the Telecom Act can be changed quickly and nor should it be rushed. ( When the wireless phones parts of it are changed I'd like to see some serious competition in here. Orange, Vodaphone, T-Mobile. People with deep pockets.)
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