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post #226 of 1110 (permalink) Old 2009-06-07, 05:36 PM
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tvlurker,

I did try to find the “sweet spot” as you suggested. Was hoping to see WCAX 3.1 pop in. I suspect in this case that even if I got Camp Fortune into a deeper null, the angle was such that the CM 4228HD’s narrow beam width caused me to lose too much forward gain on the side of the frontal lobe. I’m going to try again next time I’m down to Cornwall but it looks like CBOFT 9.1 may just be too strong vis a vis 3.1 at this location. I have a friend in Hawkesbury who is in exactly the same situation vis a vis 9.1/3.1 on RF 22. He was getting WCAX 3.1 just fine when it was on RF 53 before the February switchover.

Yes, maybe the difference between analog/digital and digital/digital co-channel interference is helping with the RF 14 situation. But I was quite surprised to see that there was almost no signal on analog 14 (just some ghosts). So notwithstanding TV Fool’s results, perhaps there just isn’t enough receive power from the Herberts Corners’ 14 at this location to cause a problem (is CJMT 14 actually directional, low power?). I will double check the analog 14 reception situation next time I’m down there.

Notwithstanding the above, my mother is absolutely delighted with her new antenna set-up.

Thank you for your very helpful comments. I’ve learned a lot from your posts and from those of the other members of this forum!
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post #227 of 1110 (permalink) Old 2009-06-07, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
I did try to find the “sweet spot” as you suggested. Was hoping to see WCAX 3.1 pop in. I suspect in this case that even if I got Camp Fortune into a deeper null, the angle was such that the CM 4228HD’s narrow beam width caused me to lose too much forward gain on the side of the frontal lobe. I’m going to try again next time I’m down to Cornwall but it looks like CBOFT 9.1 may just be too strong vis a vis 3.1 at this location. I have a friend in Hawkesbury who is in exactly the same situation vis a vis 9.1/3.1 on RF 22. He was getting WCAX 3.1 just fine when it was on RF 53 before the February switchover.
Well, at least you tried. I'm pretty sure the front lobe of the CM4228 drops off more slowly than the rear nulls, but obviously not enough, or not in the right places.

In any case, your mother may be in luck in 2011 -- CBOFT moves to channel 9, but CHCH takes over the 22 spot, but from Herberts Corners. Although HC is closer to you, it's much lower down, and 14 from there doesn't seem to bother you. Also, there's a good chance that CHCH's owner Canwest (if they still own it, that is -- CHCH is for sale) will not build out that digital transmitter.

Quote:
(is CJMT 14 actually directional, low power?)
Apparently, Rogers applied in 2004 to reduce power AND go directional.

From: http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2004/db2004-431.htm
Quote:
Broadcasting Decision CRTC 2004-431
Ottawa, 29 September 2004
Rogers Broadcasting Limited
Ottawa, Ontario
Application 2004-0212-3

CJMT-TV Toronto and its transmitter CJMT-TV-2 Ottawa - Technical change

1.
The Commission approves the application by Rogers Broadcasting Limited to change the authorized contours of its transmitter CJMT-TV-2 Ottawa by decreasing the average effective radiated power from 435,000 watts to 308,000 watts and by changing the antenna on the tower in Manotick from non-directional to directional.

2.
The licensee indicated that this change will result in a slight decrease in the eastern coverage area.
Does your mother also get WNYF Fox 28 from Massena?
There's also a slight possibility that she can get CBS WWNY from Watertown, although chances are she'll need a full-fledged VHF-High antenna to get that. No hurry -- WWNY may be building a repeater in St Lawrence County in the next year or two.
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post #228 of 1110 (permalink) Old 2009-06-10, 03:43 AM
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Thanks again, tvlurker.

I wonder if WNPI 18.1 on RF 23 with its 20 dBm more signal power than adjacent WCAX 3.1 on RF 22 is also affecting our ability to get 3.1. I’m still surprised that there is no discernable analog signal on 14 from either CJMT (NM 9.6) or W14BU (NM 10.6), but whatever the issue, we’re very happy that WPTZ 5.1 also on RF 14 comes in just fine.

Unfortunately, WNYF Fox 28 does not come in (even though the transmitter is only 19 miles away there’s a lot of higher ground between it and my mother’s house and, of course, it’s low power) and there is no signal at all showing for WWNY. A future CBS repeater in St Lawrence County could negate our desire to get WCAX from Mount Mansfield. So with this and the possibility of the conflicting RF 22 from the Ottawa area going away two years from now, there’s hope for CBS yet.
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post #229 of 1110 (permalink) Old 2009-06-10, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
I wonder if WNPI 18.1 on RF 23 with its 20 dBm more signal power than adjacent WCAX 3.1 on RF 22 is also affecting our ability to get 3.1.
I doubt it, especially since 23 is coming in from a different direction.\

Quote:
or W14BU (NM 10.6),
Is channel 14 in Massena actually broadcasting? (Just because there is an entry in the FCC database used by TVFool, doesn't mean it's actually on the air.
Do you get TBN on channel 20? It has10 times the power of 14 and 28. (And yet, you get SunTV on 20 just fine.)}
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post #230 of 1110 (permalink) Old 2009-06-11, 11:59 PM
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“Mystery” solved. Turned out my mother’s TV was set to “Cable” and not to “Air”. I continued to be surprised that she could not get the analog 14’s and WNYF Fox 28 with her new CM 4228HD. I called her this evening to check the signal source setting and asked her to change it (it's a single button press on her remote and far too easily changed by accident). CJMT 14 from Ottawa now comes in very good. Turning the antenna toward Massena, NY brings in a poor picture on 14. This may be from W14BU, but I need to check this out next time I visit my mother (might also be CJMT coming in on the antenna’s larger side lobe?). W20BA is present as well and is very watchable. WNYF Fox 28 from Massena comes in really good too (glad she can get this one)!

So her Zenith DTT901 STB/CM 4228HD antenna/CM 7777 preamp combination is able to bring in the WPTZ 5.1 digital signal on RF 14 notwithstanding two conflicting analog channels on the same frequency but is unable to do the same for the WCAX 3.1 digital signal on RF 22 with a conflicting digital channel (CBOFT 9.1) on the same frequency. And TV Fool shows the power of the conflicting RF 22 digital signal to be less than that of at least one of the conflicting analog signals on RF 14 (and maybe both). As mentioned a few posts back this result may be due to the difference between digital/analog co-channel interference versus digital/digital co-channel interference and/or the inability to tuck the conflicting RF 22 signal deep enough in a backside null on the CM 4228HD and still have enough forward gain to pull in the desired RF 22 signal.

My mother is near 80 years old and has been great about following all my “try this and that’s” over the telephone this past week and she is now even more delighted with her OTA TV. Next time I visit her I will prepare a complete list of the digital and analog channels she receives at her location and post it here.

Thanks for asking those questions tvlurker, otherwise I wouldn't have given this any more thought until my next visit to Martintown.
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post #231 of 1110 (permalink) Old 2009-06-12, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Thanks for asking those questions tvlurker, otherwise I wouldn't have given this any more thought until my next visit to Martintown.
Thanks for the feedback. It wouldn't have occured to me that the cable/antenna switch would affect the NTSC tuner without affecting the ATSC tuner, so I didn't even think to ask. (It makes sense, though, since the ATSC chanels are found by scanning, and not by inputting in a channel greater than 14 that needs to be unambiguous).

So your mother should be able to get all the Ottawa UHF stations except perhaps 32 CITS:
from Camp Fortune 24,30,34,40 analog and 20, 22, 25 digital
from Herberts Corners: 14, 32(maybe not), 43, 60 ,65 analog and 27/66 digital
from Massena: 14? if it exists, 20, 28
from South Colton: 23 digital (18.1/2/3)
from MtMansfield: 14, 32
from Lyon Mountain: 38
and you may find some other low power transloators from upstate NY as well.
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post #232 of 1110 (permalink) Old 2009-06-12, 02:43 PM
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In her case since the separate Zenith digital/analog converter box converts all the ATSC signals to a NTSC signal on analog Channel 3 (same frequency as Cable 3) for her older analog TV, the problem wasn't evident with the digital signals and that was where my major focus was the day we set up the new antenna. I don't know what happens with a digital TV set with both tuners built-in when the TV is on the cable setting. I'm guessing that there would be no reception above Channel 13 for both the analog and digital channels. I can't test at home since my TV's are all analog sets connected to good old Rogers and the analog set in my RV is set up with a converter STB just like my mother's. In any event, my mother and I are both very happy with her OTA reception. Her rural friends and neighbors are flocking to satellite so we just gave them something else to think about.
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post #233 of 1110 (permalink) Old 2009-06-12, 06:16 PM
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In her case since the separate Zenith digital/analog converter box converts all the ATSC signals to a NTSC signal on analog Channel 3 (same frequency as Cable 3) for her older analog TV,
Oops, even more obvious. I had forgotten she was using a passthru converter box.
I'm glad it ended up working out well. If Canwest ends up abandoning CHCH in 2011, and CTV ends up abandoning CHRO, that will open up possbilities to get good reception from WCAX on 22 and WFFF Fox on 43 at that time.

Also, when WCWF fires up their new 50kW digital transmitter from Tupper Lake, your mother should give that a try, CHOT analog 40 notwithstanding. (Note that TVFool inaccurately places CHOT in Limoges rather than at Camp Fortune.)
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post #234 of 1110 (permalink) Old 2009-06-15, 04:48 PM
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stampeder,

I was looking for the list of stations (Ott., East Ont....). I think I read you are working to update that list. So I guess it cant be accessed on this site yet...am I correct.

also I was wondering if the list will include the Cornwall (in between markets) channels which some get with great difficulties...

thanks as always
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post #235 of 1110 (permalink) Old 2009-06-18, 05:19 PM
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reception anyone

Can anyone from the Cornwall, Summerstown, Lancaster, Bainsville, Riviere Beaudette, Dundee, Trout River, Malone, Huntingdon, Ormstown, Valleyfield areas ....or any other nearby areas let me know what Analogues and Digitals are catchable from these areas...and if so, what set-up...


thanks, much appreciated...
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post #236 of 1110 (permalink) Old 2009-06-20, 02:09 PM
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Balm, FWIF, I think my mother's house is about 15 miles further away from Mount Mansfield than you are and likely pretty much on the same straight line. She picks up WPTZ 5.1 (and 5.2) just fine. She doesn't get WCAX 3.1 because of strong co-channel interference from CBOFT 9.1 from Ottawa. 33.1 etc comes in with occasional pixilation. She has a 30 foot tower and the base elevation is about 190 feet at her location.
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post #237 of 1110 (permalink) Old 2009-06-20, 02:25 PM
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yes, thank you, I have reviewed all your posts.

I ahve a problem with a tower, it will put into or near trees, so height will be an issue.

if you have a chance could you give me list of all digital and analogues your mom can get...I would appreciate that.

WPTZ is not worth the effort I will have put into it, and the 2 easy PBS's are boring, everything is 2 edge deffraction.

I google earthed your moms location and her line runs a little south of mine and crosses even higher terrain between Clinton and Mansfield. So thats a little encouraging for me...

Is there any way to block off the interference (CBOFT - WCAX), are you 100% sure thats the problem...

thanks
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post #238 of 1110 (permalink) Old 2009-06-29, 01:56 AM
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Preliminary results from St-Anicet, Que, near Lancaster, Ont - downriver from Cornwall Ont.:

Using a modified mclapp 4 bay:

Digitals:

WNPI(23)-PBS - Norwood, NY
WPBS(41)-PBS- Watertown, NY
WETK(32)-PBS - Mt-Mansfield, Vermont
WPTZ(14)-NBC - Mt-Mansfield, Vermont
WVNY(13)-ABC -Mt-Mansfield, Vermont (Pixelation, drops)
WCFE(38)-PBS - Plattsburgh, NY
CKXT(20)-SUN - Ottawa
CBOT(25)-CBC-Ottawa
CBOFT(22)_SRC-Ottawa
CFMT(27)-OMNI-Gatineau


Analogues:

CFTM(10)-TVA-Montreal
CJOH(8)-CTV-Ottawa
WNYF-LP(28)-Fox-Massena
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post #239 of 1110 (permalink) Old 2009-06-29, 02:13 AM
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Quote:
WNYF Fox 28 from Massena comes in really good too (glad she can get this one)!

does this mean she gets it at near digital quality? thanks
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post #240 of 1110 (permalink) Old 2009-06-29, 02:07 PM
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Balm, "really good" is my best interpretation of my mother's assessment over the telephone for WNYF Fox 28. I kind of doubt that I will describe it as "near digital quality" when I see it for myself. You asked previously if we know for sure that the problem with WCAX 3.1 at her location is indeed co-channel interference with CBOFT 9.1. I don't know for sure but it's my best "guess" at this point. I was suspicious if there might also be an adjacent channel issue with WNPI 18.1 etc (RF 23) but tvlurker suggested that that is unlikely. Interestingly and as I noted previously, a friend in Hawkesbury could get WCAX just fine when it was on RF 53 but can't since it moved to RF 22. I am surprised not to see WCAX in your preliminary list. Next time I get a chance to visit my mother, I will run through everything and make a complete list of her reception.
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