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ON - Kanata, Barrhaven, Nepean, West of Greenbelt - OTA

426K views 2K replies 219 participants last post by  plain om 
#1 ·
I've read the Knowledge Base & FAQ's. that was mind bending in a good way!
Thanks Stampeder for the background info and pointing me in the right direction.
I would like to post a description and photos of my antenna set up and ask for comments on what I could do to enhance reception on 2 digital channels.
Overall I am very happy with my TV reception.

I am receiving 3 digital channels perfect
CBC 4-1
SUN 20-1
OMNI1 27-1

and 2 more that pixel out and/or loose audio sometimes.
CBS 7-1
Fox 7-2 and several others that I am not interested in.

I also get 5 analog channels very good to perfect
Global 6
CTV 13
OMNI2 14
TVO 24
AChannel43 and several others that I am not interested in.

I would like to know if the reception of the 2 digital mediocre channels (7-1 & 7-2) can be improved. CBS and Fox broadcasting from Carthage Watertown USA. (TVfool report says 85 miles away)

My setup
Two 30 year old antennas that I set up 20 years ago 36 feet high on tower beside house with a Radio Shack mast mount preamplifier cat.# 15-1108. The preamp made a huge difference 20 years ago and still does for all channels.
From the preamp antenna unit to preamp power source is 40 feet.
Preamp power source to line splitter is 15 feet.
Splitter to analogue TV is 10 feet.
Splitter to the main digital LCD TV is 30 feet.

Yagi is pointing at 7-1 and 7-2 160degT (these are the two channels that pixel out sometimes) tvfool says 166degT 85 miles away.

Bowtie is pointing 40degT (sort of inbetween the rest of the channels I want) 29 miles away...some channels listed by tvfool as 31degT and the others are listed as being 80degT. (all good reception)

Here is the link to my tvfool report http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=b7c81ef5279b9c





Rookie questions...

1. Which end of the wide single bowtie antenna is the front? (I pointed the bowtie toward the desired channels...is that correct?)

2. Any suggestions on how to improve reception on 7-1 and 7-2?

3. Any comments on setup and age of components?

BTW...the slight bend on one of the horizontal poles on the bowtie antenna was from the great ice storm of 1998...could have been alot worse!

Thanks,

Rudy
 
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#3 ·
First step, is to stop quoting those phoney "virtual channel" numbers (7-1,7-2), and instead find out (and post) what *real* "physical" channel is being used. The physical channel determines the frequency/wavelength, and thus dictates the antenna requirements.

EDIT:: ah.. in this case, you probably mean WWNY (CBS), which (rare) uses *real* physical channel 7. Excellent.

Now, what channel was that yagi designed for ?

Cheers
 
#6 ·
mlord,
I would try to edit my post and put in the real physical numbers but I do not have the edit button in that post???...
Since I am mainly interested in improving reception for 2 channels I will do that now...yes channel 7 WWNY (CBS) and WNYF-LP ch35-2 (28) Fox(SD) both broadcasting from Carthage-Watertown.

Not sure if I understand what you mean by what channel was the yagi designed for...
I have it pointed at Channel 7 WWNY (CBS) and WNYF-LP ch35-2 (28) Fox(SD) both broadcasting from Carthage-Watertown.
Any suggestions for improved reception?
Thanks...RD
 
#7 ·
Not sure if I understand what you mean by what channel was the yagi designed for...
That yagi antenna appears to be a narrowband yagi, meaning it was likely designed for enhanced reception of a very small number of channels. I'm wondering if you know the model number, or the design frequency/wavelength of it.

It's difficult to guess, but based on the larger size of the bowtie, I would suggest that the yagi is most likely designed for VHF-hi, somewhere amongst channels 7 through 13. The bowtie itself appears to be some kind of VHF-low design, though it does have a smaller director (VHF-hi?) in there for some reason.

Neither antenna will work very well at all for channels 14 and higher, which are UHF with a much shorter wavelength.

So, depending upon the design frequency/wavelength of the yagi, it might be perfect for channel 7, or not.

And for your other desired channel 28, you'll need to have something else in place.

Or I could be totally misjudging the sizes from the photo. Measurements would help a lot.

Cheers
 
#10 ·
And for your other desired channel 28, you'll need to have something else in place.
mlord, don't get confused by the virtual channels. When he says 28.1, he means the 7.2 subchannel. 28.1 is the PSIP for the HD version of WNYF on 35.1. 35.1 has a null to the north, so it doesn't even show up in the TVFool report. Amazingly, Syracuse and Utice stations show up there before a whisper on 35. (And even if there wasn't a null, Channel 36 Franktown is in his way.)
 
#8 ·
I should have read this earlier - the top one is definitely a Delhi VHF-HI model (I own an unused one). 30 years ago if it was bought in Ottawa for Ottawa channels that means it is either for 9 or 13 but not both, because those models have steep dropoffs on the adjacent channels so they're not good for the whole VHF-HI band. I wish I could tell the element lengths better but I can't tell from the photo.

As for the other antenna, I mistook it for a VHF communications rig so I'm stumped on it, although the single elements look about the right width for a channel 6 TV antenna, which again makes sense for Ottawa.
 
#9 ·
OK, let's get things straight here.
1. 7.1(WWNY) and 7.2 (SD relay of 28.1) are both on the same physical channel, so if you can get one you can get the other

2. If the antenna was installed 30 years ago pointed towards Watertown, it was most probably a channel 7 antenna. It's probably similar to one of these.

3. Based on your TVFool results, it looks like your net system noise margin for channel 7 with an RS preamp is pretty close to 0 dB. ( = about -3.9 dB(TVFool NM) +12dBi(antenna) -7 dB(guesstimate of RS Noise Figure). I think you'll need 5 to 10 dB of fade margin for reliable operation -- you've got 1 or less. Ken Nist over at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html doesn't think much of the RS 15-1108. (Note -- the 7dB noise figure quoted above is for UHF channel 30. It's probably worse for VHF ch. 7 -- and your modern tuner probably has a BETTER noise figure than that! Unfortunately, it's masked behind a noisy preamp)

Translating all this geek-speak for a rookie -- your preamp is adding enough noise to the system that your marginal channel 7 is not coming in well enough. Replacing the preamp with something with better specs for channel 7 (a better noise figure -- typically, you can get 3 dB noise figures for VHF with a Channel Master or Winegard preamp) will improve the reliability of the signal.

Re-aiming your antenna might help, but I don't think being 5 degrees off is going to change much.

So the first step would be to get a better preamp -- more stable, and with a better VHF noise figure. Unfortunately, that means you have to climb up there to replace things. The channel 7 VHF antenna looks to be in pretty good shape, and the only way to get more gain for channel 7 would be to add another identical antenna. I think the preamp upgrade is the better route, and they're easier to find! (You can easily get at least a 3dB improvement with a better preamp, and 3dB is the most you could hope for from a second antenna.)


Stampeder wrote:
I should have read this earlier - the top one is definitely a Delhi VHF-HI model (I own an unused one). 30 years ago if it was bought in Ottawa for Ottawa channels that means it is either for 9 or 13 but not both, because those models have steep dropoffs on the adjacent channels so they're not good for the whole VHF-HI band.
Jon, I don't think so. Thirty years ago channels (4,) 9 and 13 had already been at Camp Fortune for 12 years. CF is only 30 miles away, and TVFool reports NM in the 40dB range. A 10-element yagi would have definitely been overkill for Ottawa stations (at the time, that would have been 4,6,9,13,24,30,40 -- all at Camp Fortune, although I don't think the OP was interested in 9,30,40 en français). And the fact that the yagi is pointed south to Watertown is kind of a dead giveaway.
 
#11 ·
tvlurker, You beat me to it. I was planning on saying almost exactly the same thing. I agree it is likely tuned for channel 7 and as such is an excellent antenna for receiving WWNY and WNYF (SD).

I also certainly agree that replacing the pre-amp is the first thing Rudster should do.

My next question is how is he combining the Yagi and the Bowtie antennas? Optimally he should be using a signal injector such as a Jointenna. If he is using a broadband signal combiner, he could gain another 3dB of signal with this.

As for the Bowtie, it certainly is a curiosity. I am not convinced that it is for channel 6 only as the director is significantly smaller than the reflector (to answer your first question Rudster, the small element on the bowtie should be pointed towards the station). I am thinking it was designed for all of VHF, though it does seem to be doing a good job of receiving UHF for him as well. If he turns it a bit more towards Herbert's Corners he might be able to pick up CJMT-DT on 66, though it might be on too high a channel for that antenna. Otherwise, he might want to add a UHF antenna to the mix.

After the analog shutdown, he might be able to replace the bowtie with a VHF-HI antenna, assuming Global doesn't use Ch.6.
 
#16 ·
Yagi anecdotal notes..preamps and curiosities

I agree it is likely tuned for channel 7 and as such is an excellent antenna for receiving WWNY and WNYF (SD).
I also certainly agree that replacing the pre-amp is the first thing Rudster should do.

My next question is how is he combining the Yagi and the Bowtie antennas? Optimally he should be using a signal injector such as a Jointenna. If he is using a broadband signal combiner, he could gain another 3dB of signal with this.
Anecdotal note...I think the Yagi is a good channel 7 antenna. I thought about it some more and remember that I got it 30 years ago (1980) when we bought our first house on Mississippi Lake near Carleton Place. The elderly gentleman that we bought the house from was a Ham radio enthusiast so he probably knew something about TV antennas too. When we moved twice into other homes over the next ten years I took the tower and antennas with me, set them up and replicated the compass bearing old Roy Moulton had them set at on Mississippi Lake. The last time we moved which was 20 years ago I added the preamp which made a remarkable difference for all channels.
The only thing I miss about the old analogue channel 7 is you could always watch it even if it got snowy and scratchy! The new digital channels WWNY 7-1 and WNYF 7-2 (SD) pixel sometimes and then is gone for a bit. I mostly loose the signal when it is windy-cloudy-raining.

If I get up the nerve to climb the tower again...I will try a better preamp.

I am pretty sure the two antennas are joined this way. twin leads from each antenna go to a box and one lead from there goes to the preamp and the rest is coaxial.

As for the Bowtie, it certainly is a curiosity. I am not convinced that it is for channel 6 only as the director is significantly smaller than the reflector. I am thinking it was designed for all of VHF, though it does seem to be doing a good job of receiving UHF for him as well. If he turns it a bit more towards Herbert's Corners he might be able to pick up CJMT-DT on 66, though it might be on too high a channel for that antenna. Otherwise, he might want to add a UHF antenna to the mix.
I have never seen another antenna like that Bowtie but it does seem to work pretty good for the 30 mile broadcast signals. The digital channels CBC 4-1, Sun 20-1 and OMNI 1 27-1 are perfect always. We also get Global 6, CJOH 13 , OMNI 2 14, TVO 24, A Channel 43 and CITY 65 very good to perfect. (I forgot to put 65 in the original post).

I was thinking the same thing...that I should try rotating the Bowtie a little more toward Herberts Corners.


After the analog shutdown, he might be able to replace the bowtie with a VHF-HI antenna, assuming Global doesn't use Ch.6.
This sounds like a good idea and I might try that next year.

Thank you very much to all of you.
I have learned so much and it is such an enjoyable way to learn.

All the best!

RD in CP
 
#12 · (Edited by Moderator)
Alternatively, he could use a preamp with separate UHF and VHF inputs -- feed the the Channel 7 yagi only to the preamp, and split the bowtie antenna with a uhf/vhf combiner in reverse, and feed only the uhf side to the uhf input on the preamp. The signals on the Ottawa VHF locals shouldn't need preamplification. Or, if the OP wants to invest in a separate UHF antenna for Herberts Corners, then feed that to the UHF input, and leave the Ottawa unamplified as an input to s seaparate combiner.

What he really needs is a DBGH or a parabolic UHF with a very low noise preamp to get ABC/CW WWTI on 21 and WPBS on 41 from Watertown.
 
#14 ·
Alternatively, he could use a preamp with separate UHF and VHF inputs -- feed the the Channel 7 yagi only to the preamp, and split the bowtie antenna with a uhf/vhf combiner in reverse, and feed only the uhf side to the uhf input on the preamp. The signals on the Ottawa VHF locals shouldn't need preamplification. Or, if the OP wants to invest in a separate UHF antenna for Herberts Corners, then feed that to the UHF input, and leave the Ottawa unamplified as an input to s seaparate combiner.
He could do that. I still think the other option is better. I am not convinced that the UHF performance of that bowtie antenna is good enough to survive the VHF/UHF band separater/combiner and feel the UHF antenna would be much preferable.

What he really needs is a DBGH or a parabolic UHF with a very low noise preamp to get ABC/CW WWTI on 21 and WPBS on 41 from Watertown.
I think he has a much better chance of getting WNPI on 23 than WPBS and I doubt if he could get WWTI reliably.
 
#13 ·
Bringing in the detectives :)

tvlurker said:
And the fact that the yagi is pointed south to Watertown is kind of a dead giveaway.
Thanks, I hadn't thought of that but it explains it perfectly.

Rudster, I'm going to copy your photos into the Antique, Used, and/or Mystery Antennas! thread to see if we can get a better sense of what your lower antenna is all about. We'll keep working on your reception here but we'll try to I.D. that antenna there.
 
#17 ·
The only channels that you might be able to pull in with a new UHF antenna would be CJMT-DT (Ch.66) and WNPI (Ch.23) plus its sub-channels.
And since CJMT-PT-2 is scheduled to move to channel 20 in 2011 (and with as much as 845kW), the existing antenna will probably be good enough.

That leaves PBS from Norwood or Watertown as likely reasons for improving distant UHF reception .
 
#21 ·
ON - Kanata, Barrhaven, West of Nepean - OTA

TV fool results;

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=cd7271cda15643

Primarily interested in DTV.Presently inherited 30ft tower(and pole) plus CM rotor(must replace).No ant preamp but want CM7777 asap.Lots of tall trees50-80FT!(evergreen)here but signals like 18-1/2/3 getting thru consistently.Is Digiaire pro signal finder a good idea or just be guided with TVfool results?Considering 91XG as DIY GH not likely for me.
Ron.
 
#23 ·
Primarily interested in DTV.Presently inherited 30ft tower(and pole) plus CM rotor(must replace).No ant preamp but want CM7777 asap.Lots of tall trees50-80FT!(evergreen)here but signals like 18-1/2/3 getting thru consistently.Is Digiaire pro signal finder a good idea or just be guided with TVfool results?Considering 91XG as DIY GH not likely for me.
Ron.
Looks like you are in a good location. Not sure what atnenna you currently have, but it may not be worth replacing it if you can pick up WNPI (18.x) reliably. The key is to get that rotor working.

As for a pre-amp, that depends more on your setup? Are you splitting the signal to multiple TVs or do you have more that about 50' of cable? If so, it could be useful, otherwise it likely won't help much.

Regarding the signal finder, if you are using a rotor, I probably wouldn't bother as long as the signal strength meter in your tuner works reasonably well. The signal finder is great when aiming antennas manually as you can bring it up on the roof with you and see the effects immediately.

Word of warning about the 91XG. It is a UHF only antenna, so it won't work very well for any VHF stations (such as WWNY. CJOH and CBOFT are also likely to be on VHF post transition). You could always combine it with a good VHF only antenna though.
 
#24 · (Edited by Moderator)
Roger1818:
Thanks for that input esp since we are close at hand and have similar problems,if not solutions.
My antenna looks like about 50element VHF/UHF CM?(channel master).I always thought it could serve as VHF local backup antenna on separate manual switch.Thus 91XG should do most of what I want.New CM 9521 rotor is part of the plan and is a key part.I am presently using 50ft RG6 and plan to run same to 91XG.Hoping to get comments on my TVfool results or better still get you to sample libations while seeing site.:cool:
Ron.
 
#25 · (Edited by Moderator)
ON - Kanata, Barrhaven, West of Nepean - OTA

Hi from Barrhaven,

Here are the results of my tvfool report.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbee5563ba1e0

Could you please give me some feedback on whether one omni-directional antenna like the 3000a would be useful, or if I should go with two directional antennas.

I have the money, time, and facilities for both, so it's just a question of which.

Thanks,

Vince
 
#26 ·
vfgilber, it all depends what channels you want to receive.

An omnidirectional antenna will not receive any of the American channels. There is also a good chance it won't receive CJMT-DT since the antenna's gain rolls off for the upper channel frequencies. Global (analog channel 6) will also likely be very poor.

If you go the two antenna route, you would be much better off using an A/B switch to select the antenna than trying to join them together.

For UHF, a third option would be to use a reflector-less antenna and try to receive signals off of both sides. At 126 degrees separation between the two local towers, this might work. You would then need a separate antenna for VHF.
 
#27 ·
It also depends on whther you want only digital channels. For digital local channels, you may be able to get by with a single rooftop antenna aimed midway between the two towers. There is enough signal in the air for you to get the loal channels off-axis. However, you may suffer from un-watchable ghosting on the analog channels.

You are well positioned for an external antenna to get PBS and possibly even CBS and Fox with an antenna pointed towards the states.
 
#28 ·
Hi TVLurker and Roger1818,

I'm really confused. My goal at the moment is to have one mast on my roof with an antenna that will pick up channels from the two towers roughly north and south of my house (almost 180degrees) without a rotor or having to flick a switch every time I flick back and forth between two channels that happen to each come from one tower.

Could I get away with a double-bay gray-hoverman without a reflector (or strip the reflector off a CM4228) for the digital, and then add a vhf antenna above it at the top of the antenna to get the analogue channels?

I really just want to have a few channels for the one-hour-max I watch each day.

Thanks,

Vince
 
#29 · (Edited)
roughly north and south of my house (almost 180degrees)
I'm not sure what you mean. Camp Fortune is at 0 degrees magnetic, Herberts Corners is at 124, and South COlton (WNPI/ soon WNYF-LD) is at 154.

If you're only trying to get local stations, a single antenna pointed at 60 degrees should get you both towers in digital. You may have to favour one direction or another to get the weakest station (CKXT-DT from CF, CITY or OMNI2 from HC).

If you want to get WNPI, you might be able to get by with a reflectorless antenna, but you may run out of margin during bad weather.

Also, a reflectorless antenna may make WNPI harder to get, as you way be more susceptible to adjacent channel interference from CBOFT-DT on 22 and TVO on 24 from camp fortune.

To get WNYF-LD (Fox/CBS from South Colton, starting next month) you would probably need a a high gain yagi to avoid adjacent channel interference from CITY-DT at Herberts Cornes (HC) on 17.

So the bottom line is, what stations do you want to get:

1. All analog ghost-free (a moot point in 14 months, as they will be gone)
2. All local digital (for now, CBC, SRC, SUNTV, OMNI1, OMNI2, CITY. by Aug 2011 all 15 local stations, give or take SUNTV if they decide to shutdown OTA)
3. PBS from South Colton (WNPI Norwood) and/or Lyon Mountain (WCFE Plattsburgh)
4. CBS/Fox from either South Colton, or Watertown (would require a deidicated channel 7 VHF-Low antenna)
5. CKWS CBC Kingston from Franktown, for now in analog
 
#30 · (Edited)
So the bottom line is, what stations do you want to get:

1. All analog ghost-free (a moot point in 14 months, as they will be gone)
2. All local digital (for now, CBS, SRC, SUNTV, OMNI1, OMNI2, CITY. by Aug 2011 all 15 local stations, give or take SUNTV if they decide to shutdown OTA)
3. PBS from South Colton (WNPI Norwood) and/or Lyon Mountain (WCFE Plattsburgh)
4. CBS/Fox from either South COlton, or Watertown
5. CKWS CBC Kingston from Franktown, for now in analog
Just adding my experience (I am exactly 180 degrees between towers)

compare your tv fool with mine: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=9fbe7e737d1903

and I get TV Lurker's 1 and 2 with a very simple set up - CM4221 with reflector removed, your angles are quite a way off so pointing a reflectored antenna between them could work as has been said. Options 3,4 and 5 are theoretically possible for me too but probably a lot of work. My couch is too comfortable. You might have a better chance (or a bad couch).

(Also TVlurkers 2nd option typo should read CBC, not CBS)
 
#32 ·
I'm not sure what you mean. Camp Fortune is at 0 degrees magnetic, Herberts Corners is at 124, and South COlton (WNPI/ soon WNYF-LD) is at 154.
Sorry - when I reran TVfool today, for some reason, it was showing me Nepean proper instead of Barrhaven. I'd forgotten that the angles are way off.

Looking at those options, I believe options (2 + 3) or (2 + 4). I'm just not sure how to accomplish it. One CM4228 aimed between the two towers and then one yagi to pick up CBS/Fox. If I understand correctly, I'd use a combiner to put the two antennas into one feed?
 
#33 ·
You don't need a 4228 to get the locals -- it has more gain than you need, and has a narrower beamwidth that you want. Any UHF outdooor antenna will do. A 4221 should be fine.

The tricky part with combining a yagi for 18 and 23 is that now you're combining strong signals from 17, 22, and 24 in with weak signals from 18 and 23.

Depending on the length of your coax, I would go with a low-noise preamp on 17/23, and then combine it through a splitter with dc passthru with an UNamplified antenna pointed at the locals.

This should even out the relative levels of the local and distant stations.

Alternatively, you could try a 4228 aimed at South Colton and see if it picks up local digitals adequately off the back and side. In that case, the preamp should hurt you too much.
 
#36 ·
Will do.

I have been reading through all of them, and while I've garnered knowledge in general, not many postings actually talk about what specific gear people have up on their roofs. There didn't seem to be much treatment of the issue of pulling signals 180degrees (or around there) from each other.
 
#37 ·
a 45degree beamwidth means that at 22.5 degrees n each direction, your received power will be down 3dB (which means it will be half the power).

But TVFool at 10 feet for Greenbank and Fallowfield shows that Camp Fortune stations have a noise margin between 34 and 56 dB.

So losing 3dB won't be noticeable. (But it will drop off steeply after that, and at some point you could have a 30dB null towards Camp Fortune which would kill CKXT (if Quebecor doesn't do it first LOL)

Where it would be noticeable would be on the US stations.
 
#38 ·
Well,

I needed something to tide my wife and her mother over the weekend while she is visiting. I whipped up a Stealth Hawk with Home Despot parts, and put it on a 6ft wooden pole off my chimney. I ran the cable through one of the orphan wires running from old ExpressVu dishes that were just left on the roof.

All the local digital and hd come in perfect. The analog are all a bit fuzzy and have a bit of ghosting. It will do until either tomorrow or next week when I pick up a new antenna.

I'm quite surprised at the quality of the digital and hd channels. A really nice surprise.
 
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