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post #121 of 272 (permalink) Old 2010-11-05, 01:19 PM Thread Starter
 
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Location: West Coast of Canada - God's Country
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Cool

Update,

I just talked to the neighbor and he is trying to trace where the issue is so he can get a decent signal to his place. He's changed the pink cable out and now has a shorter piece of RG6 connected to the LNB and Booster. He may have to move the Booster around a bit to see where the maximum benefit is. I still wonder if it's the right amplifier for the application. I keep hearing about sloped, and other types, of boosters but have no application data for any of them. It's like shooting in the dark.

My BIL hasn't been around much (working), so the new box of RG6 for the 2 remaining cable runs hasn't appeared.

I don't know if I mentioned but my Brother added the DSR-505 to his account on the Home and Away (?) program so we're all good. He pays a few bucks extra to Shaw for it. But I reviewed his plan and convinced him to go with the BC Digital Value pack, and add the Sports package, instead of his old plan. He lost a couple of unwatched Ontario based channels and such. He still comes out a few bucks ahead when all is said and done. (So he's happy )

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=129124

After aligning the 60e dish for the Cabin (above) I installed another to replace the circular dish my other neighbor had so he could move to HD. I felt it was the least I could do as he let us use his conduit to pull the cables under the road. Feedback was he's happy too as the signal has never been better.

Regards,
Jim
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post #122 of 272 (permalink) Old 2010-11-07, 07:32 AM
 
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Grease

I've taken some pictures of my tube of dielectric grease, but I can't post them. Here is all the info from the label:

Front:
Permatex. Dielectric Tune-up Grease. UPC19751. No 67VR. 28g.

Back:
Caution....

Permatex, ITW Performance Polymers, Design, and Made for the Professional are Tms of Illinois Tool Works, Inc. Distributed by ITW Permatex Canada, Milton, ON. www.permatex.com Item#19751.
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post #123 of 272 (permalink) Old 2010-11-07, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
 
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Cool

Thanks Tico.



Have you seen this Graph before?


Regards,
Jim
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post #124 of 272 (permalink) Old 2010-11-07, 11:47 AM
 
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No I haven't. Not sure what it's saying, that putting stuff is bad or good? The pink line looks OK (stuff filled), but the greyed out lines below are not so nice.

Anyways, the plot doesn't show "waterlogged, corroded, underground, failed connectors due to improper sealing". And, the sat cables will be much more vulnerable to aging failures because of the fact that they carry DC current for the LNB power and switching. Galvanic corrosion doesn't take much, the tiniest bit of H2O and some mineral salts to work with and - lookout!
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post #125 of 272 (permalink) Old 2010-11-14, 03:24 AM Thread Starter
 
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Cool Stumped!

Yes, I agree - the graph doesn't take into account real world conditions. I think it's possibly a bit biased toward Stuf but interesting in that it's the only "data" I could find on the subject.

I still think I'll use something when all done.

Now I need some serious help as I'm stumped.

My Neighbor has been testing the existing system. (Still short the last 2 cable runs for the Multiswitch...) I had him connect the reciever at the rear of the Cabin (with a small TV) and document the signal strength on Channel 299 and 284 as to catch both Birds.

Here's the data (I'll comment to it in my next post ):

At the Dish prior to cable run install off short 30 foot cable:

On FR1 Channel 299 - ShawDirect Reg - the strength is 72

On F2 Channel 284 - NBC HD - the strength is 94

At the Rear of the Cabin at end of 350 foot cable install:

On FR1 Channel 299 - ShawDirect Reg - the strength is 71

On F2 Channel 284 - NBC HD - the strength is 92

After adding 248 feet of RG6 Indoor Dual Shield to the above to temporarily carry the signal over to the neighbor's house:

On FR1 Channel 299 - ShawDirect Reg - the strength is 61

On F2 Channel 284 - NBC HD - the strength is 39

After adding a Phillips SDW5005GN In Line Amplifier in between the Cables to the above to carry over to the neighbor's house:

On FR1 Channel 299 - ShawDirect Reg - the strength is 70

On F2 Channel 284 - NBC HD - the strength is 39



After connecting to the neighbor's inside cabling to his TV:

On FR1 Channel 299 - ShawDirect Reg - the strength is 64

On F2 Channel 284 - NBC HD - the strength is 39

Regards,
Jim
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post #126 of 272 (permalink) Old 2010-11-14, 11:41 AM
 
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Signal strength of 39 is effectively no signal.

I have two guesses - I don't want to mess with my multiswitch right now as I have recordings in progress.

To recap LNB switching:

- each bird has Horizontal and Vertical transponders, they are selected by the receiver supplying either 13V or 18V to the LNB.

- to select between birds, the LNB looks for 22kHz tone superimposed on the DC supply voltage. Absence of tone selects bird 1, presence of tone selects bird 2.


Guess #1: Something may be interfering with the 22kHz tone getting to the LNB. Not sure what this could be, especially if the signal for the other bird is getting back and your LNB power is getting to the dish.

Guess #2: Voltage drop in the cable is not allowing enough voltage to get to the LNB to trigger the change to 18V transponders.

If #2 is correct, you should also lose signal on bird 1 on half of the transponders. Conversely, bird 2 should work on half the channels. I don't have enough info to tell you which channels are which, or if, in fact, channel 284 is a high voltage TP.

The solution to 1 or both of these problems may be to locate the multiswitch mid-way on the coax run, as it inserts it's own power and 22kHz tone onto the coax to the LNB.

*Edit*
It might be obvious, but I forgot to mention the poor man's method for determining which sat/TP a channel is on. Tune to the channel with a receiver connected via a multiswitch, and unplug each line (no 22kHz 13V and 18V, and 22kHz 13V and 18V) feeding the multiswitch until you lose the channel.

*Edit #2* Re: my last post. So far, everyone has been too polite to point out my error - I should have referenced electrolysis, not galvanic action. Galvanic action occurs when two dissimilar metals exposed to the same electrolyte create a current. Electrolysis occurs when the current is applied by an external source (such as the receiver). I guess my point was clear enough though.
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post #127 of 272 (permalink) Old 2010-11-14, 02:53 PM Thread Starter
 
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Cool

tico,

As always, thanks for jumping quickly into the discussion.

I should explain that as we only have 2 of the Cable runs available (for now ) I've got the neighbor connecting to the end of one of the 350 foot RG6 Quad Shield cables (at the rear of the Cabin).



So the Multiswitch (above) is not in the circuit. It's either the Phillips SDW5005GN In Line Amplifier (Booster - see photo above) or a barrel connector between that cable, and the 248 feet of indoor RG6 Dual Shield cable which goes on to his place.

I too have thought that maybe the voltage drop is getting too large to switch the LNB appropriately, and that's why I left him the new Booster, but maybe it's not the right one to use in this situation (I bought 4 of them just in case ...) I've also thought that maybe this Booster may be defective.

The neighbor is pushing on trying to get my BIL to purchase the remaining RG6 Quad Shield as the weather has turned, and they now got a dusting of snow! We wanted this all buttoned up by now!! If the BIL doesn't have the cable, the neighbor is going to buy it himself today, and get on with it. (I'll split the cost with him.)

I advised last night that if he got the remaining 2 runs installed, and connected to the Multiswitch, it may boost the signal enough to get him decent reception. Of course I expected the Booster to bump up the signal at his house to about the same level as at the Cabin, as long as it's working correctly.

Comments and suggestions before the Lake becomes a snowy frozen popsicle ! => Please?

Regards,
Jim
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post #128 of 272 (permalink) Old 2010-11-14, 03:20 PM
 
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Jim:

Connect the multiswitch SAT B inputs only to the two lines you have already run out to the dish. Then connect the receiver with your run of lengthy coax to the output of the switch and retest the SAT B channels (284). Then, connect the SAT A inputs to the two lines you have run and test SAT A channel (299).

While you're at it, pull the 13V / 18V lines one at a time to see if 284 is on an 18V TP.
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post #129 of 272 (permalink) Old 2010-11-14, 03:36 PM
 
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Of secondary note: I don't believe that those signal "boosters" can do anything to help if the LNB switching voltage is not present. Let's say for the sake of argument you are getting 17V midway, enough to switch the LNB, but only 16V at end of the full run (not enough). The booster is not going to take the 17V and bump it back up to 18V to pass along the rest of the run...and your signal strength of 39 leads me to believe that you are not connected to the right TP at all -- I can't remember if it's numbers in the 20's or 30's that you will get with no cable connected at all - but it is not zero as one might expect.

In contrast, the multiswitch WILL boost the 18V signal back up midway.
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post #130 of 272 (permalink) Old 2010-11-15, 04:31 AM Thread Starter
 
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Cool Far too late figuring this out...

tico,

My neighbor did get a very poor blocky signal (not watchable) on 284 with 39 signal strength. I did test this system for background noise not pointed at a Bird last summer, and it was about 20 or so. Certainly not near 30. (Or 39)

I agree that there will be a certain voltage level that the system will fail to operate the LNB. But according to Oksat (post link below), this 625 feet run is well below some he discussed here => using an inline booster / amplifier with RG6:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...ter#post705584

So perhaps I've got the wrong booster / amplifier ???

Anyway, the neighbor is going to try to test the system as you suggested.

I think I’ve figured it out two ways. Once you get the decoding info the data makes more sence.

Shaw Quad LNBs use an internal switch which responds to 13V for Vertical, and 18V for Horizontal, and 22Khz switched to the F2 side of the LNB. (While no tone leaves the LNB tuned to F1R)

The First uses Lyngsat Data. (I`ve edited the page down a lot for illustration purposes.) Notice the arrows point to the Letter beside a transponder number which corresponds to Vertical or Horizontal. You already know we are looking at F2, which is all 22 KHz. So if the Channel (like 284) has a V after that number it`s a 13V with 22 KHz. If it`s got a H after it then it`s a 18V with 22 KHz.

Similarly one can easily figure out F1R.



http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/shawf1.html

http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/shawf2.html

On the (ShawDirect) spreadsheet for F2 (below) and look at line 58 for Channel 284 (NBCHD- Highlighted in yellow) . Under column I which is Pol (for Polarity) it say 284 is V (for Vertical).

So as above, Channel 284 is 13V with 22 KHZ based on these charts. So we should be able to plug one Sat Cable to the 13V and check 299 off any of the 8 outputs, and plug the other Sat Cable to the 13V with 22 KHZ and check 284.




By the way, here's a good description of LNBs and their operation that I've used for reference.

http://www.satsig.net/lnb/explanation-description-lnb.htm

Regards,
Jim
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post #131 of 272 (permalink) Old 2010-11-15, 09:43 AM
 
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I keep forgetting that LyngSat has that list of channels for SC. I am familiar with LyngSat, but mostly for my FTA browsing for feeds and ethnic channels; I was really sad to see C.A.R.T. go under, that was a fun one. I have a motorized kU and CBand dish, together with the 16 runs of RG6 to various motors and LNBF's - let's just say I'm pretty familiar with that part of the technology, but I don't have any 500' + runs, that part is new to me.

Anyways, back on topic: If they are both 13V (299 and 284), and if you were getting a picture (poor quality yes, but a picture none the less) on 284, then both my theories are shot: 22kHz is getting through and LNB has enough power. On the SC web site they say to expect a signal indication of about 20 or so without being pointed at the sat and your signal of 39 is better than that.

I guess it's still worth putting the multiswitch midway to see what happens, but I'm not holding my breath in light of this new info.

My last thoughts on the matter lead me to suspect your last piece of coax (248 footer). Indoor RG6 dual shield? Any way to test with an alternate chunk of RG6 Quad? Maybe you could connect the two 350 footers together at the cabin end of things, then somehow get power near the dish itself and plug in the receiver there -- basically run a 700foot loop of RG6 Quad?

The other possibility might be if you are testing the 248 foot chunk while it's still on a roll - that would create a nifty coil that might just have some crazy inductive property that is killing things with 22kHz running through it.
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post #132 of 272 (permalink) Old 2010-11-15, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
 
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Cool This Week's Plan...

This weeks plan now is 2 fold.

I got the neighbor enthused last night explaining how to use only the 2 installed cable runs to test things as they are now - using the powered multiswitch. He's going to try that. The Indoor RG6 is run over ground to his place from the Cabin around the back to his place (The last house to the left in the photo.) so any inductive impacts by coiling are nil.



The second part of the plan is to complete the installation of the Sat Cables this week => as real winter is expected by Thursday or so. If that happens I expect nothing more outdoors until Spring.

He is getting a new 1,000 foot roll of RG6 Quad Outdoor so he'll be able to install the 2 Sat runs with it, and have 300 Feet left. We'll then use that in place of the Indoor RG6 over to his place. That will eliminate the indoor cable variable. The F connectors he is using are indoor and B grade at best, but that's all he has. I plan to replace exterior connectors with sealed outdoor types on my next visit if it's warm enough. I am seriously contemplating getting the neighbor to negotiate with SD for a 75e when he gets his own account (the BIL is not involved anymore it seems...). SD is still giving a free dish with new accounts so there is no cost impact. That would give us a signal boost of about 10 right off the bat, although I'm doubtful if there is any gain in voltage that would help with the drop.

That was the original design once I couldn't get a look at the Birds from in front of the Cabin. The 60e was just the easy? /cheap? check to see if we could get a signal. I hope the Multiswitch provides enough boost to overcome the 250 feet. If not I guess we'll start mucking about with the in line amplifier after the multiswitch; or some other electronic wizardry.

Regards,
Jim
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post #133 of 272 (permalink) Old 2010-11-15, 07:41 PM Thread Starter
 
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Cool Success! ~ Well Sort of...

I forgot the links to the ShawDirect Channel Charts in the post above (Sorry) so here they are:

http://www.shawbroadcast.ca/channelinfo/charts_e.asp


The testing today went well, although not perfectly.

It's raining cats and dogs at the Lake with pools of water all over the road. (Not great weather to be mucking about with Sat Dishes and Cable trenches ) But the neighbor persevered, and connected the cables as described above from the multiswitch. The results are:

After connecting to the neighbor's house inside cabling to his TV:

On F1R Channel 299 - ShawDirect Reg - the strength is 53

On F2 Channel 284 - NBC HD - the strength is 79

Other channels on those "2 legs" into the Multiswitch (13V and 13V with 22 KHZ ) are good with similar numbers. I think we are losing a bit of signal to "rain fade", and also to an uncrimped connector at the end of the temporary (indoor RG6) cable. However he says the Picture is good (but not as good as from the local Shaw Cable company which is strange...) and the sound is solid. He is also only inputting to his LCD TV via a Coax cable. My target was to have the Signal at 70 minimum for both Birds at his house so no issues with snow /rain fade would occur.

I wonder if we'd see any benefit installing the Phillips SDW5005GN In Line Amplifier after the Multiswitch? I think it's worth a try. What do you think?


The weather is supposed to be better tomorrow, and the neighbor is planning to get the cable, and pull the 2 remaining Sat runs. He's getting positive results now so his intensity is up. Besides he can now see the end of the Project, as he asked me why he shouldn't be purchasing his own Receiver / ShawDirect account earlier today.

Regards,
Jim

Last edited by Jimsathome; 2010-11-16 at 01:24 AM. Reason: add ShawDirect Channel Chart Link
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post #134 of 272 (permalink) Old 2010-11-17, 12:14 PM Thread Starter
 
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Cool Getting There...

Yesterday's Progress Report:

The neighbor had to go to Kamloops and buy the 1,000 foot box of of RG6 Quad Shield Cable (I dunno what's going on with the BIL .) He pulled the 2 remaining Sat runs with the help of his wife. But he ran out of F connectors and darkness enveloped them (dam it get dark early these days...) so they are not yet connected.

He sealed up the conduit at the second pull station, and needs to finish this for the rest of the line. He's backfilling those areas as he gets them done.

He noticed "sparks" coming out of the Cables to ground when re-routing them up the inside of the metal pole holding up the Dish . He obviously forgot to unplug at the Multiswitch. I advised him again about the 2 voltages available, and told him to disconnect before mucking about again. (I hope nothing got damaged.)

He's picked up some more connectors and today, weather permitting (it snowed a bit yesterday after the rainstorm the day before), he'll hook up these two remaining cables at the Dish and Multiswitch.

He'll then use most of the remaining RG6 Quad Shield to replace the 250 feet of indoor RG6 Dual Shield going over to his place.

Once that cabling is complete I've asked him to test it at the reciever which is at his main TV inside his house. His wife says the picture is much better, but without real data it's hard to quantify.

If the results are near 70% on 299 & 284, I'll call it good until I get up there again and replace all the exterior F connectors. If the signal is not strong I've decided to install the Phillips SDW5005GN In Line Amplifier right after the Multiswitch. I think thats where the boost would be most benificial as it would be amplifying the cleanest signal there and therefore worth a try.

I went to a "Satellite Store" yesterday (mostly "Free to Air" it seems) and explained the situation; but they had no real insight on how to make this signal stronger. But maybe it was just the lack of knowledge by the Sales clerk. So without a lot of info we'll try the above and see what happens.

Regards,
Jim
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post #135 of 272 (permalink) Old 2010-11-18, 01:35 AM Thread Starter
 
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Cool Closer...

A quick update.

The new cables were terminated, and a new 250 foot run of Quad Shield RG6 was installed to the neighbor's house and terminated. The Signal strength improved only marginally"

On F1R Channel 299 - ShawDirect Reg - the strength is 54

On F2 Channel 284 - NBC HD - the strength is 90

He didn't have time to change the last two loose connections, but will get to those when he installs the Phillips SDW5005GN In Line Amplifier. Hopefully that will push Channel 299 up to 70 while not hurting anything.

I spent half an hour on the phone walking the neighbor through cabling from the DSR505 Sat Reciever to his 42 inch LCD TV. He'd never had HD before so it was all new to him. When he finally finished and saw the picture he said "Wow! Jay Leno - It's like he's standing here! It's almost 3D..."

We're almost there...

Regards,
Jim
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