PS3s Now Made For Half The Price - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

dezzpayne · 2008-01-12, 01:08 PM

Breaking even on the hardware? What's next, a bottom line? Consider what the PS3 meant to Blu-Ray and the war, to break even or come close to breaking even on the hardware 1 short year later Sony may actually consider it a worthwhile investment. People keep pointing out the expense of the Blu-Ray diode but what everyone fails to mention is the Cell. It's cheap sure but it cost billions to develop from what I read and you would think a couple of billion dollers would buy you something that can't be produced by a run of the mill IBM CPU(360).

This was meant to be be a rah rah Sony thread. I just sorta trailed off onto the Cell rant

Gogo multithreaded games!!!11

http://kotaku.com/344097/ps3s-now-ma...half-the-price

"Yeah, a lot's been made of the PS3 losing Sony money. As impressive a machine as it is, it costs a ton to manufacture, and the more Sony sell, the more money they're losing. Or are they? We know the 40GB model was - at least partly - an exercise in cost-cutting on Sony's part, and now we've got an idea on just how much they've cut. A BusinessWeek report on the recent Blu-Ray news claims a PS3 now costs Sony $400 to manufacture, which while still being a lot, is down from the $800 they were costing at launch. Those are some handy savings. As a result, Japanese analysts predict the machine may actually start breaking even in...late 2009, which is a little later than Kaz was hoping.
Sony's Blu-Ray Breakthrough [BusinessWeek]"

jvincent · 2008-01-12, 02:25 PM

Quote:

It's cheap sure but it cost billions to develop from what I read and you would think a couple of billion dollers would buy you something that can't be produced by a run of the mill IBM CPU(360).

I doubt that the Cell actually cost billions to develop. If it did then there are a bunch of people who should be fired. It's not really that complex a chip.

If you add in all of the after the fact development of S/W for games, etc. that is being done on it, then yes it could be in the billions but that is spanning many products/markets.

I wouldn't call the CPU in the 360 run of the mill either BTW. It's pretty beefy. It's just a different architecture than the Cell.

dezzpayne · 2008-01-12, 02:56 PM

"The Cell processor has been both a boon and a burden for Sony. The high-octane processor at the heart of the PlayStation 3 has given Sony's console a competitive edge in performance potential for the current generation of gaming hardware. However, its development has also inflicted a significant dent on the Japanese electronics giant's bottom line, costing Sony approximately $1.7 billion alone, according to recent estimates by financial news service Bloomberg."

Consider cell was a 3 party project between Toshiba, Sony and IBM the 1.7B was just Sony's investment. Also while they still maintain intellectual rights they just sold off the plant to Toshiba for approx 900M.

jvincent · 2008-01-12, 03:09 PM

I'd be curious to see what exactly is lumped into that 1.7B.

I'm in the ASIC development business and like I said, the Cell is simply not that complicated. If they did in fact spend multiple billions of dollars to develop it then some people deserve the boot.

99semaj · 2008-01-12, 03:12 PM

...and isn't it really an extension of the PPC family, which is a mature product family?

jvincent · 2008-01-12, 03:17 PM

There is a single PPC and multiple SPEs in the Cell. The SPEs are where the heavy lifting happens.

The big architectural boost is the way that the SPEs are connected and how they can be programmed.

dezzpayne · 2008-01-12, 03:23 PM

If I remember there are 8 SPE's per chip, 7 are turned on and 1 off to increase yields.

I question what is required to make the most of this chip? Is the responsibility on the developers? Sony is infamous for making difficult to program for consoles which perhaps is a large part of the reason why games are trickling in for it. Certainly all these clones we see IE, EA games are very basic ports which only scratch the surface of Cell. What can Sony do to make the most of what they poured into Cell?

Joeskie · 2008-01-12, 03:24 PM

^ Make a game themselves that will make the world say WOW.

jvincent · 2008-01-12, 03:33 PM

The knock on the Cell is that it is indeed difficult to program.

Any new, novel H/W architecture usually means hard times for the S/W guys.

What probably happened is that the Cell team released what they thought was a good S/W development environment but when the actual developers got a hold of it that wasn't the case. Not an unusual occurance in the processor development world unfortunately.

dezzpayne · 2008-01-12, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeskie

^ Make a game themselves that will make the world say WOW.

It may be as simple as that. They have a few 1st party developers. They really need a game that shows the world what the Cell can do. It's hard to lead but easy to follow.

Joeskie · 2008-01-12, 03:50 PM

It really is. The game can suck in every aspect but needs to excel in graphics, motion and most of all reality.

jvincent · 2008-01-12, 03:52 PM

Notwithstanding all of the technical prowess of the Cell, if you don't have a good concept, story, plotline, etc. for the game all the processing power in the world isn't going to help.

All you are going to do is suck faster.

asif9t9 · 2008-01-12, 03:53 PM

I think it's pretty cool that the games for the PS3 still have room to improve. A good investment, it would seem.

Zoo · 2008-01-16, 03:02 PM

The {S3 is like many systems before it where it is sold at a loss, eventually breaks even, and then can be sold for a modest profit. The money comes in the game licences.

In this case Sony sure hit some heavy roadblocks from the get-go. The Wii has turned out to be a phenomenal success and the 360 is getting a lot of the hardcore gamers. Now the PS3 is starting to hit its stride with a much better price point and some phenomenal games with more to come in 2008. Lastly, Warner going BLu-Ray exclusive has sent a message that Blu-Ray should/will be the winner for HDM. The result? Lots more people buying PS3s which in turn helps lower the cost per unit, plus more BLu-Ray movies being sold which gives licensing fees to Sony plus more PS3 games being sold which also gives more $ to Sony and will help convince the other gaming studios to pay more attention to the PS3 and do a better job on ports.

In short Sony's plan is coming to fruition. It hasn't been the easy, smooth path they probably envisioned. In the end putting the Blu-Ray drive in the PS3 has helped push Blu-Ray over the edge and in the next year or two the capacity and bandwidth of the drive might show some superior gameplay possibilities over the 360. Even if the PS3 does not win this generation it won't be a joke and owners will get a lot of fun and value out of the PS3 with the movies and games they can use on their PS3.

Eluder · 2008-01-16, 03:38 PM

Hopefully you're right Zoo, cause so far the PS3 has been a gaming disappointment for me as an owner of a 360 as well...

2008-01-12, 01:08 PM	#1
dezzpayne Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Barrie, ON Posts: 1,374	PS3s Now Made For Half The Price Breaking even on the hardware? What's next, a bottom line? Consider what the PS3 meant to Blu-Ray and the war, to break even or come close to breaking even on the hardware 1 short year later Sony may actually consider it a worthwhile investment. People keep pointing out the expense of the Blu-Ray diode but what everyone fails to mention is the Cell. It's cheap sure but it cost billions to develop from what I read and you would think a couple of billion dollers would buy you something that can't be produced by a run of the mill IBM CPU(360). This was meant to be be a rah rah Sony thread. I just sorta trailed off onto the Cell rant Gogo multithreaded games!!!11 http://kotaku.com/344097/ps3s-now-ma...half-the-price "Yeah, a lot's been made of the PS3 losing Sony money. As impressive a machine as it is, it costs a ton to manufacture, and the more Sony sell, the more money they're losing. Or are they? We know the 40GB model was - at least partly - an exercise in cost-cutting on Sony's part, and now we've got an idea on just how much they've cut. A BusinessWeek report on the recent Blu-Ray news claims a PS3 now costs Sony $400 to manufacture, which while still being a lot, is down from the $800 they were costing at launch. Those are some handy savings. As a result, Japanese analysts predict the machine may actually start breaking even in...late 2009, which is a little later than Kaz was hoping. Sony's Blu-Ray Breakthrough [BusinessWeek]"

2008-01-12, 02:56 PM	#3
dezzpayne Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Barrie, ON Posts: 1,374	"The Cell processor has been both a boon and a burden for Sony. The high-octane processor at the heart of the PlayStation 3 has given Sony's console a competitive edge in performance potential for the current generation of gaming hardware. However, its development has also inflicted a significant dent on the Japanese electronics giant's bottom line, costing Sony approximately $1.7 billion alone, according to recent estimates by financial news service Bloomberg." Consider cell was a 3 party project between Toshiba, Sony and IBM the 1.7B was just Sony's investment. Also while they still maintain intellectual rights they just sold off the plant to Toshiba for approx 900M. Last edited by dezzpayne; 2008-01-12 at 03:17 PM.

2008-01-12, 03:24 PM	#8
Joeskie Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 205	^ Make a game themselves that will make the world say WOW. __________________ Samsung 58B650-Toshiba A30-Yamaha YSP4000 YSTFSW100-Elite 360-BEV 9242-6100-H 880 - PS3 40GB

2008-01-12, 03:50 PM	#11
Joeskie Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 205	It really is. The game can suck in every aspect but needs to excel in graphics, motion and most of all reality. __________________ Samsung 58B650-Toshiba A30-Yamaha YSP4000 YSTFSW100-Elite 360-BEV 9242-6100-H 880 - PS3 40GB

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2008-01-12, 03:09 PM	#4
jvincent Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Ottawa Posts: 5,369	I'd be curious to see what exactly is lumped into that 1.7B. I'm in the ASIC development business and like I said, the Cell is simply not that complicated. If they did in fact spend multiple billions of dollars to develop it then some people deserve the boot.

2008-01-12, 03:12 PM	#5
99semaj Veteran Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: /dev/null Posts: 2,663	...and isn't it really an extension of the PPC family, which is a mature product family?

2008-01-12, 03:17 PM	#6
jvincent Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Ottawa Posts: 5,369	There is a single PPC and multiple SPEs in the Cell. The SPEs are where the heavy lifting happens. The big architectural boost is the way that the SPEs are connected and how they can be programmed.

2008-01-12, 03:23 PM	#7
dezzpayne Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Barrie, ON Posts: 1,374	If I remember there are 8 SPE's per chip, 7 are turned on and 1 off to increase yields. I question what is required to make the most of this chip? Is the responsibility on the developers? Sony is infamous for making difficult to program for consoles which perhaps is a large part of the reason why games are trickling in for it. Certainly all these clones we see IE, EA games are very basic ports which only scratch the surface of Cell. What can Sony do to make the most of what they poured into Cell?

2008-01-12, 03:33 PM	#9
jvincent Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Ottawa Posts: 5,369	The knock on the Cell is that it is indeed difficult to program. Any new, novel H/W architecture usually means hard times for the S/W guys. What probably happened is that the Cell team released what they thought was a good S/W development environment but when the actual developers got a hold of it that wasn't the case. Not an unusual occurance in the processor development world unfortunately.

2008-01-12, 03:52 PM	#12
jvincent Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Ottawa Posts: 5,369	Notwithstanding all of the technical prowess of the Cell, if you don't have a good concept, story, plotline, etc. for the game all the processing power in the world isn't going to help. All you are going to do is suck faster.

2008-01-12, 03:53 PM	#13
asif9t9 Veteran Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Oakville, Cogeco Posts: 2,973	I think it's pretty cool that the games for the PS3 still have room to improve. A good investment, it would seem.

2008-01-16, 03:02 PM	#14
Zoo Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Guelph, Ontario Posts: 356	The {S3 is like many systems before it where it is sold at a loss, eventually breaks even, and then can be sold for a modest profit. The money comes in the game licences. In this case Sony sure hit some heavy roadblocks from the get-go. The Wii has turned out to be a phenomenal success and the 360 is getting a lot of the hardcore gamers. Now the PS3 is starting to hit its stride with a much better price point and some phenomenal games with more to come in 2008. Lastly, Warner going BLu-Ray exclusive has sent a message that Blu-Ray should/will be the winner for HDM. The result? Lots more people buying PS3s which in turn helps lower the cost per unit, plus more BLu-Ray movies being sold which gives licensing fees to Sony plus more PS3 games being sold which also gives more $ to Sony and will help convince the other gaming studios to pay more attention to the PS3 and do a better job on ports. In short Sony's plan is coming to fruition. It hasn't been the easy, smooth path they probably envisioned. In the end putting the Blu-Ray drive in the PS3 has helped push Blu-Ray over the edge and in the next year or two the capacity and bandwidth of the drive might show some superior gameplay possibilities over the 360. Even if the PS3 does not win this generation it won't be a joke and owners will get a lot of fun and value out of the PS3 with the movies and games they can use on their PS3.

2008-01-16, 03:38 PM	#15
Eluder Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,446	Hopefully you're right Zoo, cause so far the PS3 has been a gaming disappointment for me as an owner of a 360 as well...