Picture quality on new HDTV

[FrozenCanuck]

Hi guys,

As a few of you know, I bought the grand wega 50" TV. It arrived yesterday. Beautiful. I was not expecting any miracles with regular analog cable TV and it was so-so picture quality. Good enough considering the source.

My question is around my DVD player. I tried it configured two different ways and I was expecting better. First, I used composite. That's always how I've done it before because my old 20" colour set had only composite input. FYI, my DVD player is older, non-progressive (a Toshiba unit). It always looked super clear on my old set, but of course anything looks good on a 20" screen. So the first think I noticed is that in "normal" mode on the Grand Wega, the picture looked very small, took up no more than 1/3 of the screen (in terms of area). Any clues to this?

Anyway, I don't yet have any true coaxial component cables, so I figured what the heck, I'll try out lousy RCA cables (left/right/video) as a substitute for component. The run is short (5 ft) so should be worth a shot. Well, it worked but the picture was not much better. A bit better...

So the questions are:

1) is the picture problem mostly a function of having a non-progressive DVD player or lousy component cables (they were real cheap-o audio/composite cables)?

2) if I buy a new progressive scan DVD player is it OK to go for the one that sells for $135 at FS (ie, does money really get you a "better" Progressive unit)?

Lastly ... for those interested in pricing, here is what I bought yesterday and what I paid.

Yamaha HTR-5550 receiver (normal price $449)
Athena Point 5 speaker system (normal $799)

The Yamaha was on sale for $399 (month end quottas to make?) The Athenas were on sale for $759. So I was pretty happy to find that my package would cost $1158 vs $1248 the day before. Anyway, I simply told the guy that at $1100 we had a deal. He got manager approval, no problem. I did not buy warranty or any cables, although he GAVE ME FOR FREE a package with nice 16 AWG speaker wire, a subwoofer cable and a digital optical cable. Apparently inventory they are clearing out and giving away to customers (probably if you spend enough).

[57]

Let's address the issues one at a time.

1. Picture size.

Firstly, set your DVD player to 16:9 (it may have been 4:3). Secondly get some "good" component video cables. I recommend Radio Shack Gold Ends or AR cables which will run $25-50. Feel free to spend more if you feel the need - See the FAQ on "Cables & Connections". Thirdly, check out the FAQ section - link below. In there you'll find a description of Widescreen Stretch modes and "Black Bars". These posts will help you sort out which stretch mode you may wish to use for various situations - with DVDs and regular viewing. It may take a while before you figure this out due to all the possible combinations.

http://www.digitalhomecanada.com/for...forum.php?f=57

2. Picture quality.

I found the "Vivid" setting far too "harsh" on this TV. The "Pro" setting was more like a properly calibrated TV, but even there, I thought the TV needed further tweaking. See the post "what you need to do to your new HDTV". Although this LCD-based RPTV doesn't need convergence adjustment, the colour contrast, etc. do typically need some tweaking. Since the viewing modes can individually store individual settings, you may wish to have one setting for daytime (bright) viewing with another setting (Pro, for example) for evening (darker) viewing. Up to you.

3. DVD Player:

An inexpensive PS DVD player may not be much better than what you've already got (although it may be). There are people on this forum who can recommend some models, but you may not get away with $135. You just spent a chunk of change on a TV, do you really want to watch a cheap DVD player? I'm not talking about spending $500, but perhaps a bit more than $135. From what I've read, the Panasonics and Toshibas have had good reviews. (I just haven't been keeping up on DVD players because A) There are so many B) I don't need one C) I'm waiting for HDDVD :wink:

[I_Want_My_HDTV]

I would check the forums and video sites for advice on a good progressive scan DVD player. Their are huge differences in picture and sound quality between units. As they say, "Garbage out (of DVD player), garbage in (to TV)". I spent over $1000 on my DVD player but their are now comparable units available for much less.

[FrozenCanuck]

57 thanks for the info. I'll try what you suggested.
I_Want_my_HDTV ... also thanks. I think you guys have convinced me to pick something other than the cheapest player.

Questions:

1) regarding component cables, can I make my own? I did a lot of reading on them and discovered that the connectors are not ever truly 75 ohm, only the cable is. Therefore, can I buy connectors and solder them to RG6 or equivalent coax? To me, gold plating is a bunch of BS because if you have a 25 ohm or greater impedence mismatch, a few milliohms diff from gold plating won't do squat. But I realize that any "good" connector will have gold plating so it's not really an option. If I can make my own, where do I buy the connectors? I haven't seen any anywhere!

2) 57 - I wasn't even aware you had to "set" a DVD player for 4:3 or 16:9. On my old 20" regular set, the DVD player played movies as widescreen if they were widescreen DVDs. If I rented a non-widescreen movie, then it displayed in 4:3. So watching "Charlie's Angels" the other night, in Normal mode, it displayed a widescreen image, but it only filled up a small fraction of the total screen. So the fact that in "normal" I had a widescreen image makes me think it isn't a DVD problem, but I'm not sure. Does this additional detail help at all in diagnosing the problem? It's very strange.

[57]

FC, a DVD signal needs to be "stretched" properly to be viewed properly on a widescreen TV. I believe the appropriate stretch mode for an anamorphic (enhanced for widescreen) DVD is "Stretch". For "non-enhanced" DVDs, the mode is "Zoom"

Please look at the two FAQ posts I mentioned earlier. All is explained there. The two posts again are "Widescreeen Stretch Modes" and "Black Bars".

[FrozenCanuck]

I just realized that I forgot to ask one of the important questions regarding 480i vs 480p. My DVD is a non-progressive unit but my TV is a new grand wega, so I'm assuming it SHOULD automatically convert the 480i feed from the DVD into a 480p signal for display ... but I don't think it's doing this. For example, I was watching a movie where the image was "still", but the camera was panning, so in fact it was a moving image, but nice and smooth. It gave me the perfect opportunity to observe how the fine details would disappear and reappear as they moved vertically up or down the screen. Very irritating.

So - first, how do I find out if my Sony GW can do auto 480i conversion to 480p. Second, how to I turn on this feature? I cannot find any info on this in the manual or the sony website.

[57]

FC, your Grand Wega converts all incoming signals to 768P. That's the number of pixels in the display. The TV has no choice. 1080i also gets converted to 768P, everything does.

[FrozenCanuck]

Hi 57 ... I did read the FAQs and a bunch of other stuff now. I believe I understand the stretch problem now. My DVD must be setup in 4:3 mode, so it presents a "widescreen" image to my TV, but doesn't know that it is a widescreen set, so the left/right "borders" for the picture are inside of the actual screen borders....this explains why I have black bars on all four sides of the picture. I'll fix it tonight.

As for my TV converting everything to 768p, doesn't that negate the purpose of getting a progressive scan DVD player? I mean, if the picture is being displayed as progressive already, why have the DVD do it? Is it simply a matter of quality? Do certain DVD players do this better than my TV. For almost $6k, I'd hope my TV does a good job of it.

Going back to the stretch modes, am I correct in assuming that when I setup my DVD properly (16:9 display), that I will actually be sending a lot more resolution to the screen? My thinking is that currently, a 480 line display is being converted to less resolution for display on a 4:3 screen, and then my TV zoom function is expanding that crappy image back up to fill the screen.

Lastly .. anybody have comments on SONY DVD players? I see a model called the DVPNS725P at Future Shop for $219. It has 12 bit / 108MHz video DAC compared to a basic player at 10 bit / 27 MHz. It is also progressive and has both coax and optical outputs for audio. The only things that I think might irritate me are the following.

1) it does not seem to have a "shuffle" function for MP3 discs (do any models do this well?)

2) it does not appear to have any zoom features, but maybe that's not an issue. I only ever used zoom on my old toshiba to fill the screen properly.

I can't seem to find any good info on the web about what to look for in a quality DVD player. So far I'm going base on features, progressive vs non-progressive, and the number of bits and processing speed for the DAC.

[FrozenCanuck]

Man oh man...I keep coming up with more questions. Hopefully this will provide some useful insight to others.

My Grand Wega has a DVI input. For those who don't know, this is a digital input. Digital signals are either perfect or not viewable (ie, garbage). There is essentially no in-between. So, with a DVI connection, you eliminate all the D/A conversions that separate a cheap DVD player from an expensive DVD player. At least in theory, right?

So are there any models right now in the store that have DVI connectors? I would guess that any DVD player that has DVI will also have the analog formats (composite, svideo and component). So for now, they will not be cheap, but probably more expensive.

BUT - down the road, several years from now, it would seem logical to think that ALL DVD PLAYERS will have a DVI connector on them, and maybe nothing else. Digital audio + digital video and no expensive (poorer quality) analog outputs. So my bold prediction is that in 5 years you can buy a DVI DVD player for under $99 Canadian.

But while I'm waiting, where can I get a decent DVI enabled DVD player right now?

[57]

1. DVI DVD players - there are 3. Samsung, Bravo and Momitsu. See this thread.

http://www.digitalhomecanada.com/for...pic.php?t=7210

All of these players apparently have terrible PQ when viewed with component video, so don't buy unless you have DVI.

2. DVD quality. If you read the FAQs it says in there that the quality will improve on "anamorphic" (enhanced for widescreen) DVDs. The quality will be the same on "regular, unenhanced" DVDs.

3. DVD players "deinterlace". TVs "upconvert". Two different applications. The better the signal that gets to your TV, the better the final TV picture will be. Don't expect twice the picture from a PS DVD player - the picture may be better, marginally better or no better, depending on the player and TV.

[FrozenCanuck]

57 ... thanks again for the link to DVI DVD players. Yah, if I buy one I will not use analog outputs at all.

For those still interested in the thread...

I went to Future Shop and a couple other local electronics stores in the last hour. I asked all the sales guys about quality differences between players. Here is what I was told:

* on two occassions, a sales guy tried to tell me that progressive units have better quality optical heads. Yah, total BS. They don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Optical portion reads a digital signal. It's either perfect or non-existent.

* one guy told me that if I wanted to use the DVD for audio (CD, etc) purposes as well, I should go with Pioneer over Panasonic because Pioneer is better at sound. Yah, right. Again, we're talking about a digital dolby sound output. How is it possible for any DVD player to be better than another on sound when the output is digital? Am I right here or am I missing something?

[FrozenCanuck]

Hi 57 - thanks for all your advice yesterday. I went home last night and set my DVD player to 16:9. As you correctly guessed, it was set to 4:3 letterbox yesterday.

Now here is a basic stretch mode question that was not 100% clear to me from the FAQ. You probably have the info there, but I just want to be sure of my interpretation.

It seems to me that if a DVD is a "widescreen" version, then I should be using the "normal" mode on my TV set, correct? Well, I was watching Terminator 2 last night to test things out, and in Normal mode it still shows a picture that has black bars on all four sides. The picture was bigger than before, and I'd say the black bars were about 3" on top/bottom and 4" on the sides ... but I just don't get why the picture wouldn't at least fit fully in one axis. I used the "full" mode (horizontal stretch) to watch it and it seemed to look pretty good.

So tonight I'll try again with a decent set of cables from Rat Shack (see my other post on not having success making cables).

The nice feature on my TV is that I can split the screen and have two images side by side, from different inputs. Since my DVD has composite and component outputs hooked up (one in Video 1, another in Video 5), I can simultaneously watch the same DVD in both composite and component. So far, I am not seeing ANY difference whatsoever, even when I pause the picture and use slow motion. So I'm a bit disturbed by that ... but I also have to realize that when viewing 2 pictures side by side, it's as if each pic is on a 25" screen.

[57]

FC. To futher clarify the FAQ on "black bars" and "WS stretch modes", which you may wish to re-read.

1. You MUST use one of the stretch modes for WS DVDs. You CANNOT leave your TV in "Normal".

2. For "Enhanced for Widescreen" DVDs like T2, use "STRETCH" on your Sony (I think that's what it's called).

3. For "unenhanced" DVDs use "ZOOM" on your Sony (I think that's what it's called).

4. 4:3 DVDs can be watched in "Normal" or "Wide-Zoom" mode - I'd recommend the latter to prevent uneven LCD greyscale wear (similar to burn in on CRTs).

I could tell from your questions yesterday that you were still not clear on the concept of using the appropriate stretch modes. I hope this is now clear.

The difference between composite and component cables is most visible on "test patterns" and on "moving images". You can see the difference on the AVIA test patterns, where the composite will only give you about 400 lines of resolution. Component will go to 540. There is also an AVIA test pattern that "moves around". If you look at that one, you'll see all sorts of "colourization" effects on composite, while component will show none of those effects. If you know what to look for on a DVD you'll see a difference. If you don't, you likely will not, especially on a simple "freeze frame".