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OTA Forum Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Delta, BC (96Av x 116St)
Posts: 23,338
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Some ATSC Tuners have been known to have specific problems with certain DTV stations, such as PC cards that reportedly have trouble with CFTO-DT CTV in Toronto. DHCers indicate that the problem was found to be likely a problem with the station's PSIP (pronounced pee'-sip) data, or the inability of the cards to work with that data. Elsewhere there has been speculation that certain HP ATSC-equipped TVs may be having trouble with PSIP data too.
Okay, if its so important that certain tuners may not work properly on certain stations, what is PSIP data? From www.psip.org: Quote:
For those who don't know about a PSIP capability called channel remapping, it is a feature of the ATSC standard for use during the analogue-to-digital transition that allows broadcast stations to telecast on a newly assigned DTV channel but "trick" the receiver at your home into displaying a channel number that corresponds to the original analogue channel or any other unused channel they please. For a fictional example: An analogue station called CKZZ on channel 8 spent 39 years in a market and has branded itself heavily on its channel number. Their DTV assignment is channel 43 so they must move all their programming over to 43.1, but now they face a big advertising job and the loss of almost 4 decades of "Channel 8" market branding. Using PSIP Channel Remapping, CKZZ-DT begins telecasting on 43.1 but sets its PSIP data to display 8.1 on home receivers. Their "Channel 8" identity is thus saved. After the transition period is done (2009 in the U.S., 2011 in Canada) and the analogue Channel 8 transmitter is permanently shut down, CKZZ-DT's owners make the strategic decision to actually broadcast on 8.1 and leave 43.1 behind for Industry Canada and the CRTC to reassign to any other TV station they choose. Effect on the consumer? The home receiver picks up the change and adapts accordingly with no consumer effort needed. Once again, their "Channel 8" identity is thus saved. Everyone is happy. Quote:
It is much, much more energy-efficient ($$$) to broadcast in the VHF-high band than in the UHF band to cover the same area, so this is a desirable move for some stations to make. Others will decide to just stay where they are with their new assignments. You can check the FCC database to see which stations in the U.S. near the Canadian border have elected to go back to VHF-high and which have elected to stay in UHF. As always, the situation up here in Canada is murky at best. This is why I will always keep an excellent VHF-high antenna around... the Channel Master 4228 UHF Regarding the Real Time Clock features of PSIP, 99gecko writes: I did some more reading and verified that the only way an ATSC tuner determines the local time is from the PSIP data that is coming from the channel your tuner is currently locked on, i.e. not on the local PBS station - that would require multi-tuner capability anyway. You must however tell your ATSC tuner to observe DST (locally). from atsc.org: Quote:
The following (edited) is an excerpt taken from a presentation (to broadcast engineers I assume); source:http://www.bitrouter.com/pdf/tutorial-psip.pdf: It is technical, but what it shows is that the local DST requirement is clearly a matter of proper programming. Quote:
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#2 | |
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OTA Forum Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Delta, BC (96Av x 116St)
Posts: 23,338
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Quote:
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#3 |
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OTA Forum Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Delta, BC (96Av x 116St)
Posts: 23,338
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Judging from the article and from what we DHCers have learned about PSIP over the last few years it is obvious that PSIP has been an awfully difficult system to implement, and so the ATSC authorities have had to sharpen their pencils and come up with a better approach to making it work.
The goal is now to bring in tools based on XML documents that will ease PSIP implementation and administration. I can hear the cheers from irritated OTA station staff already! |
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#4 |
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Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,962
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Are they not going to use PSIP remapping?
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#5 |
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OTA Forum Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Delta, BC (96Av x 116St)
Posts: 23,338
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Thanks dsspredator for confirming that the PSIP data problems associated with CFTO and OMNI in Toronto apparently have been fixed. If you haven't done so already, do a rescan and everything should be fine now.
I think pnear deserves a round of applause for his efforts to bring this to the attention of the right people, and also all of you who identified the problem in the first place and shared your knowledge here. I've closed the 2 original threads about these Toronto PSIP data problems. I hope this isn't like some 1950s b-grade sci-fi movie that finishes with "The END... or is it?!!!" [queue the weird theramin music] EDIT: I just put alebowgm's message into this thread because he posted it just as I was locking the OMNI thread. |
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#6 |
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Milton, ON
Posts: 664
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When I spoke to their engineering lead, the plan was no remapping. But will pose the question to the man responsible for their PSIP data.
Last edited by pnear; 2006-11-14 at 07:02 PM. Reason: Decided to ask again |
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#7 |
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Markham, ON
Posts: 2,534
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#8 |
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 13
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I second that. Thanks Pete. For a while there, I was considering tossing in the towel on OTA (CFTO-DT was unreachable for over 1 month!), but now I have CFTO, OMNI1 and OMNI2 for the first time ... all in HD!
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#9 |
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Milton, ON
Posts: 664
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Confirmed - they plan to stick with the channel assignments as they exist today. VCT and RF channel the same.
Pete |
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#10 |
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Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ajax, Ontario
Posts: 1,928
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Last night my CFTO which used to be on 9-1, remapped itself back to 40-1. That was on my sanyo tuner.
But on my Evu 9200, it still works on 9-1. I liked onmi better when it was on 47 & 69. I can't tell which is which with 44 & 66. Aren't all the other toronto channels re-mapped to match their analog numbers?
__________________
Samsung TV, Pio-Elite AVR, OppoBD, Wharfedale Speakers, Kicker Subs. Bell EVu, DB-4e OTA:) |
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#11 |
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Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ajax, Ontario
Posts: 1,928
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Nov 16, yesterday afternoon, i couldn't get CFTO at all. Don't know if they were off air, or just the psip mess up.
After re-scanning a few times i gave up. It wasn't there. Then i tried again, just before the 6 pm news, and there it was, back on 9-1 just like it was before it was fixed. with station id but still no program info.
__________________
Samsung TV, Pio-Elite AVR, OppoBD, Wharfedale Speakers, Kicker Subs. Bell EVu, DB-4e OTA:) |
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#12 |
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Markham, ON
Posts: 2,534
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Was going to post this in the offical DST thread, but since the remedy is out of the hands of the consumer and since it only affects OTAer's I posted it here.
The new DST is here and my on-screen guide is still messed up because of faulty PSIP data because of it. I checked the config of my STB (Samsung SIR-T451); it is set to automatically detect DST - probably firm coded for the originally DST dates. I tried turning this on and off, and it doesn't actually do anything. I did an internet search and somebody mentioned that some STB's set their date/time from the local PBS's stations PSIP, regardless of the station you are on. However I think that might have been speculation. Since I don't recall it being a problem before, I think it must because of adaption of the extended DST. Toronto/Buffalo Channels in DST (compliant): American: 2, 43 Canadian: 5, 9, 25, 66 Toronto/Buffalo Channels not in DST: American: 4, 7, 29, 49 Canadian: 57 Anybody else experiencing this? |
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#13 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Markham, ON
Posts: 2,534
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I did some more reading and verified that the only way an ATSC tuner determines the local time is from the PSIP data that is coming from the channel your tuner is currently locked on, i.e. not on the local PBS station - that would require multi-tuner capability anyway. You must however tell your ATSC tuner to observe DST (locally).
from atsc.org: Quote:
The following (edited) is an excerpt taken from a presentation (to broadcast engineers I assume); source:http://www.bitrouter.com/pdf/tutorial-psip.pdf: It is technical, but what it shows is that the local DST requirement is clearly a matter of proper programming. Quote:
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#14 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Markham, ON
Posts: 2,534
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I was multi-tasking when I put in my original post. Explains a few errors including the ommision of channel 23.
Should have read as: Quote:
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#15 |
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brampton
Posts: 482
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The queston now is..... when we get to the "old" dst date in three weeks time, will everything start to work "normally" again?
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