Signal Amplifiers (Amps, Preamps, Distro Amps) - See Chart in Post #1

[bentoronto]

bpringlemeir - when you say, "Even if the W-G pre-amp works, you will be able to buy a better pre-amp after Aug2011"... you mean, "because of less fear of overload after August, you will be able to buy a better...."? Or do you expect better products to be sold then?

My interest is equally for FM where I have been less successful in getting PBS-Buffalo 94.5 FM-HD than in getting Buffalo TV stations. I gather from your helpful and plain-spoken comments that after August, 2011, I'll be in an improved position to benefit from a pre-amp to compensate for downlead losses on FM as well as TV.

Separate issue: as of today, does it look like any Canadian or Toronto digital TV signals will still be in the old SDTV high or low VHF TV bands?

[tvlurker]

Originally Posted by bentoronto

Separate issue: as of today, does it look like any Canadian or Toronto digital TV signals will still be in the old SDTV high or low VHF TV bands?

Definitely.

Here is the list in the IC database for VHF channels either approved or currently under consideration. It does not include allotments and assignments which, of course, may be changed:

 
prov	city	status	channel	call letters	network	lat	long	EHAAT 	Peak ERP	Frequency		   
QC 	Ste-Marguerite-Marie 	UC	3	CHAU-DT-1 	 	481841	670503	199.6	1680	60	 	   
QC 	Rivière-au-Renard 	UC	4	CHAU-DT-7 	 	485951	642553	228	990	66	 	   
QC 	Carleton 	UC	5	CHAU-DT 	 	480808	660704	482.8	9850	76	 	   
ON 	Ottawa 	AU	6	CIII-DT-6 	 	453011	755101	261.3	3300	82	 	   
ON 	Paris 	AU	6	CIII-DT 	 	431539	802638	311.3	4000	82	 	   
AB 	Lethbridge 	AU	7	CISA-DT 	 	494647	1125218	201.4	19700	174	 	   
MB 	Winnipeg 	AU	7	CKY-DT 	 	493448	971005	280.8	24000	174	 	   
QC 	Rivière-du-Loup 	AU	7	CKRT-DT 	 	473437	692258	345.1	7000	174	 	   
QC 	Sherbrooke 	AU	7	CHLT-DT 	 	451843	721430	588.1	4000	174	 	   
NS 	Halifax 	AP	8	CIHF-DT 	INDE 	443903	633925	241	1000	180	 	   
PE 	Charlottetown 	AP	8	CKCW-DT-1 	 	461605	632027	150.3	9600	180	 	   
QC 	Trois-Rivières 	AU	8	CHEM-DT 	 	463007	723809	291.3	11500	180	 	   
SK 	Regina 	AU	8	CKCK-DT 	INDE 	502652	1043002	187.2	23000	180	 	   
SK 	Saskatoon 	AU	8	CFQC-DT 	 	521130	1062315	268.8	10000	180	 	   
NB 	Saint John 	AP	9	CKLT-DT 	 	452839	661359	445.9	7600	186	 	   
NB 	Tracadie 	UC	9	CHAU-DT-10 	 	473014	645517	48.9	25	186	 	   
ON 	Toronto 	AU	9	CFTO-DT(1) 	 	433833	792314	467	10800	186	 	   
QC 	Rouyn-Noranda 	AU	9	CKRN-DT 	 	481551	790239	219.6	19000	186	 	   
QC 	Montrėal 	AU	10	CFTM-DT(1) 	 	453020	733530	296.8	11000	192	 	   
QC 	Port-Daniel 	UC	10	CHAU-DT-3 	 	480820	645907	152	21	192	 	   
QC 	Val d'Or 	AU	10	CFEM-DT-1 	 	482517	775048	201.1	22000	192	 	   
QC 	Sherbrooke 	AU	11	CKMI-DT-2 	 	451843	721430	611.7	1000	198	 	   
SK 	Regina 	AU	11	CFRE-DT 	 	503544	1050412	300	17300	198	 	   
AB 	Edmonton 	AU	12	CFRN-DT 	 	532306	1131252	228.1	25000	204	 	   
NB 	Saint John 	AU	12	CIHF-DT-2 	 	452840	661400	354	6000	204	 	   
QC 	L'Anse-a-Valleau 	UC	12	CHAU-DT-9 	 	490427	643212	54.1	75	204	 	   
QC 	Montrėal 	AU	12	CFCF-DT 	 	453020	733530	299.6	10600	204	 	   
QC 	Quėbec 	OP	12	CBVT-DT 	CBCF 	464922	712943	500.1	2450	204	 	   
QC 	Quėbec 	AU	12	CBVT-DT(1) 	 	464922	712943	500.1	2450	204	 	   
AB 	Edmonton 	AP	13	CITV-DT(1) 	 	532306	1131252	228.1	25000	210	 	   
AB 	Lethbridge 	AP	13	CFCN-DT-5 	 	494359	1125740	171.5	27000	210	 	   
MB 	Portage La Prairie 	AU	13	CHMI-DT 	 	495226	974427	324.3	8300	210	 	   
ON 	Kitchener 	AU	13	CKCO-DT 	 	432415	803804	291.9	12000	210	 	   
ON 	Ottawa 	AP	13	CJOH-DT 	INDE 	453011	755101	373.4	19000	210	 	   
QC 	Percė 	UC	13	CHAU-DT-5 	 	483136	641437	389.7	10375	210	 	   
QC 	Rivière-du-Loup 	AP	13	CKRT-DT-3 	 	475128	693309	49.2	114	210	 	   
QC 	Rouyn-Noranda 	AU	13	CFEM-DT 	 	481551	790239	219.6	22000	210

[bentoronto]

Thanks for helpful information.

It might be fair to say those are stations that don't care a lot about OTA.

I guess OTA homes will need to consider their local circumstances as far as maintaining an upper-band VHF antenna and/or antenna orientation to pick up cities near or far.

So, the closest Toronto TV frequency is at 9 (186 MHz) or later, maybe 8 (180 MHz). Therefore, Toronto FM antennas with pre-amps may not be overloaded from a single station lingering nearby on the high-band VHF channels... assuming a commercial 88-108 MHz FM antenna is down by 4-6 dB (a pure guess) at 180 Mz.

Plausible?

[tvlurker]

You're not going to get amp overload on channel 9 with only 10.8 kW.
What could happen, though, is that stations in the 93-96 MHz range could interfere with channel 9 reception, although that's more likely for people far from channel 9, and close to an FM tower -- say in Hamilton.

[bpringlemeir]

Originally Posted by bentoronto

bpringlemeir - when you say, "Even if the W-G pre-amp works, you will be able to buy a better pre-amp after Aug2011"... you mean, "because of less fear of overload after August, you will be able to buy a better...."? Or do you expect better products to be sold then?

I was just talking about overload. However, I doubt that manufacturers will take a good pre-amp off the market and technology also usually advances rather than regresses. Also, you can get a pre-amp with a smaller input band after Aug2011 as all stations in the higher UHF will move. If the CRTC/US regulators put some high power signals in the upper UHF (>700Mhz), current pre-amps may have issues.

[GeoStar]

Hi
I bought a second kitztech amp a kt-200 back in april . I did not have a chance to try it out till now cause the kt-100 was working ok .

I decided to try out the new boxed 200 just this week and was disapointed with a screen of snow , only my distribution amp multiplied the signal and no amplification by the tk-200 .sigh

Just like jrmclean and one other guy I seem to have gotten a dud. This unit was an early model and may have some kind of problem in the initial build. I tested the power injector and it was ok with a full 12 volts .

I talked to the kitz tech , he said it may be over amplified but with no amps other than the kt-200 I only had snow.

Well my kt-100 has been moded as Stamp has sugested with an old pc heat sink and thermal paste -- keeps the kt-100 really cool , it was a bit warm in operation and I had more drop outs before the heat sink.

So off goes the tk200 for a warantee replacement ..

[stampeder]

Glad the heat sink works so well - does the thermal paste hold it in place, or did you have to attach it in another way?

[balm]

this summer i received 2 in a row dud, one was way overpowering (even with heavy attenuation), the other had a broken injector, but aftersale is EXCELLENT

[GeoStar]

just got it in place, I will find if it keeps all cool in the next while

my unit is in the basement on a 2by 4 so I can mod it quickly

here is the pic with some pointers -- this is a crude implementation




way overpowering , how can you tell if that is the problem ? mine just shows snow ( canadas favourtive product)


Can you use two kitztech amps one as a pre amp the second as a distribution amp ?
thanks

[laurienicol]

The way I understand it, the signal the antenna gathers is all the signal you get. You can then amplify it to get it to transmit down the cable to the TV with a little more power, or rather less loss. That's why we need the pre-amp close to the antenna.
Is a pre-amp the same as an amplifier?

When we split the signal to send it off to TV #2 we have less pushing power per cable.
Is the power drop per side proportional and equal to the cable length, and independent of the splitter? Can the power needed be estimated by the length of the RG6?

I have sixty feet of cable directly to the TV from the CM4228 antenna.
Some of the US channels are marginal and usually don't come in, but the signal meter says they are there. Usually I need a 30% or greater on the meter and these stations are normally in the 10 to 20% range. Would a pre-amp help?

If I split the cable to run a similar length to another TV, would I lose the channels that are currently in the 35% range, and would a pre-amp compensate.

Can I power the pre-amp from the CM rotator (20V AC)? What kind of power do I need?

Dumb questions, I know, in a sophisticated forum, but better to ask than to guess.
laurie

[Jase88]

laurienicol: You've got the concepts down correctly. And there's never a dumb question. It's better to know for sure, then to risk damaging something, or having to make another trip up a tower or roof or attic to correct something.

The pre-amp is indeed an amplifier. Pre-amps are typically powered through the coax output of the device. Within your home, you install a power inserter, which plugs into a standard outlet. I wouldn't attempt to power a pre-amp any other way than prescribed by the manufacturer.

It seems odd to some of us, but DC power and RF signals can co-exist on the same line.

In my home, I've got a ~90' cable run to the house, plus another ~40' or so to two sets. The pre-amp on my tower does a good job supplying signal to both sets. It's worth noting that I'm using RG6 coax. If you use rg59, you may have problems with higher channels over long cable lengths.

[majortom]

laurienicol,

the benefit from a pre-amp is two-fold.

a.) to improve the overall sensitivity of the system (a measure of the ability to pull in weak signals) . Without a pre-amp that sensitivity is driven by the sensitivity of the first active component in the system, which without a pre-amp would be the TV receiver itself. Consumer TV receivers are generally pretty crappy in that regard. So by installing a Low Noise Figure Pre-amp right at the antenna, now the overall receive sensitivity is driven by the pre-amp, and not the Tuner. Major improvement.

b.) Yes it will make up for splitter losses also. Barring excessive lengths in one leg relative to the other leg of a two way split system, the amount of signal lost would be 1/2. 1/2 goes one way, the other half the other way. IMO not as big a deal in most cases.

Assuming you don't have any really strong transmitters right next to you to worry about, try installing a decent pre-amp. It should help stabilize the weaker signals that are right on the cliff for your now, without one. For 30 - 40 bux it's a relatively cheap experiment, compared to what ya may have paid for the antenna, rotor, installation, etc...

[bentoronto]

Why in the entire universe, as far as I know, is there just one single only pre-amp the tolerates big input signals (Winegard 269)?

We folks near strong stations, which gotta be a whole lot of the OTA crowd, often also want weak stations in the same direction and I bet I speak for the loads of people in Toronto and elsewhere.

Why?

Pity there is no viable DIY pre-amp group? Quite amazing over at the DIYaudio website what sophisticated theory and construction is happening - it would shame the audio professionals. Here we have some antenna work and quarter-wave baluns... not much more, not much depth. (Yes, I know there are good reasons.......)

[wilspin]

Jass88 is correct, preamps come as a set with a matching power supply. I would not experiment with anything else or mixing vendors products as you must ensure improper voltage does not reach the TV set on the RF cable.

[j0dest3r]

Post #14 of the FAQ also has some good information.
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=41102

I have a question. What do you do if you have a strong transmitter close by. Can you still use a preamp for the further away stations? Perhaps I should check the FAQ