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Old 2010-05-16, 09:47 PM   #271
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28 gauge is pretty small wire. It has about 20 times the resistance of 14 gauge and even more so, if aluminium, rather than copper. Up to a point, larger size wire helps, but beyond that you hit diminishing returns. 14 ga has only about 2.5 times the resistance of the 10 ga. you mentioned. Now once you've determined the resistance of the wire, you have to consider it's effect on the circuit. Speakers & wire form a series circuit. With 50 feet of a pair of 14 ga wires, you're looking at about 0.3 ohms, and your speakers will be around 4 or 8 ohms. So, with 50', you're still less than 10% of the speaker impedance. With 50' of 10 ga, you've got 0.1 ohm and with 8, 0.06 ohms. If you do the calculation, of total series resistance, with a 4 ohm speaker, you get 4.6 ohm with 14 ga, 4.1 with 10 and 8, 4.06. This will result in very little change in the power delivered to the speakers. Overall, you will not be able to hear much of a difference between those, as your ear cannot tell the difference in level, if less than about 3 dB. To get such a change, you'd have to double or halve the power to the speaker and those changes in wire sizes I mentioned will not cause anywhere near that amount of change.
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Old 2010-05-16, 10:54 PM   #272
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but the thing is... and it's been proven by my annual hearing tests, I can hear down to 1 dB difference when it's A/B compared.

Regardless, I don't want to start an argument. I'm a cheap guy and if I don't hear enough of a difference between cables, I won't spend a single cent more.
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Old 2010-05-27, 09:02 PM   #273
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well, that's the problem with close mindedness. I was like most audio "enthusiasts" and never want to try anything. Most of the stuff ARE snake oil, but some are actual gems. Open your mind, try it, if you don't hear or see the difference, return it. Simple, no? The thing is most people don't even BOTHER to try.
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Old 2010-05-28, 01:15 AM   #274
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I have to agree with the tests. If there is no difference of the signal out from the signal in, how can there be a difference to hear?
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Old 2010-05-28, 06:54 AM   #275
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The CBC test has nothing to do with speaker cables (or any other cable that handles analog signals). Not saying the difference would be perceptable to most people, but there would be some difference in an analog signal transferred by a cheap vs. expensive cable (especially as distance increases).
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Old 2010-05-28, 07:11 AM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aafsnews.tk View Post
CBC did a monster cable report

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIf8HLZK6a8
I'm talking about speaker wires, CBC is not talking about speaker wires -- not even analog signal.

PS: the last time I checked, CBC is not the authority in home audio, especially not in the analog realm.
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Old 2010-05-28, 07:16 AM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetranger View Post
I have to agree with the tests. If there is no difference of the signal out from the signal in, how can there be a difference to hear?
because the test is about DIGITAL signal, we're talking about ANALOG signal.

It's like saying "if there is no between keychain quality, how can there be any difference in the lawn mowing capability" - two completely different worlds

PS: try using the CBC test using 40' length at full 36-bit colour and 7.1 LPCM signal... you will hear and see the difference. Because most cheap cable can't handle that bandwidth at that distance. Only good cable (this does not equal to expensive cable) can do that.
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Old 2010-05-28, 07:33 AM   #278
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^^^^
This sort of thing has been tested for many years. Test instruments are far more sensitive than the human ear at measuring differences. If there is no measurable difference, there is no audible difference. End of story. However, that does not stop the "golden ear" types from making physcially impossible claims. What you want to do is a double blind A/B test, where the wires are switched with neither listener, nor the person recording the test, knowing which speaker wires are being used. Until you've done that, such claims are nonsense, unless one wire is so bad it produces a noticable difference.

BTW, the audio industry is full of bogus claims.
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Old 2010-05-28, 07:41 AM   #279
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James, Like I said, I have some extra cables, try them out yourself.

re HDMI cable, I've tried using cheap 40' HDMI cables (plural) and they will NOT pass through 36-bit colour and 7.1 LPCM. The picture flickers (the typical green screen of HDMI with the ocassional snow). Once I changed it to good HDMI cables (good does not equal expensive), it passes through 36-bit colour and 7.1 LPCM without a hitch.
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Old 2010-05-28, 10:26 AM   #280
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Are there any tests that show analog cables run through an oscilloscope or similar test for analog cables? Most "expensive cables are scams" claims I've seen just use perceived audio quality to prove their point.

I can easily accept that some people have extremely sensitive hearing, much like how some people are super-sensitive to taste or smell. Yes, there are stories of people who think this and are proven wrong, but that doesn't mean nobody in the world has sensitive hearing.

Will the average consumer be able to tell the difference between lamp cord and heavier-gauge cable in short runs? Probably not, but it's not fair to say nobody will.

One more thing regarding the CBC article on digital cables: we don't know what kind of signal was being fed through the cable. Given the emphasis on watching TV, one would expect a 720p or at most 1080i signal with stereo or Dolby Digital 5.1 audio was used. This uses quite a lot less bandwidth than 36-bit color, 1080p video and 7.1 LPCM audio. Run that through a signal tester and tell me everything is still "perfect." Also, show me such a test with a long cable.
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Old 2010-05-28, 10:39 AM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGY11 View Post
One more thing regarding the CBC article on digital cables: we don't know what kind of signal was being fed through the cable. Given the emphasis on watching TV, one would expect a 720p or at most 1080i signal with stereo or Dolby Digital 5.1 audio was used. This uses quite a lot less bandwidth than 36-bit color, 1080p video and 7.1 LPCM audio. Run that through a signal tester and tell me everything is still "perfect." Also, show me such a test with a long cable.
That is correct. For short runs, 1080i, 24-bit colour, and DD+ or DTS, virtually ANY cable can do the job. Considering it's CBC, I can only assume they use cable feed (ie 1080i max, 24-bit colour, regular DD 5.1 at the very maximum)

Even runs as short as 25ft (I've done lots of installs, in the hundreds), not too many affordable cables can do 1080p 7.1 LPCM and 36-bit colour. Or even when it can, the same brand/model/length tend to have inconsistencies in its capabilities (so most of the times they work, but another times from another batch won't work). The more expensive cables have consistency. When you're dealing with customers, deadlines, burying cables in the wall / ceiling, an installer can NOT risk having a bad cable.

What I don't understand... for you all naysayers... try it out yourself. If you see/hear no difference, return the more expensive cables. It's simple, it doesn't cost you money, and it allows you to actually explore what's out there.
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Old 2010-05-28, 12:36 PM   #282
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David, you admitted earlier in this thread that you had a faulty cable and basically you were upset because it was difficult for you to return it in a timely manner. That's no reason to promote expensive cables, just because you replaced the faulty one with an expensive one that worked. I can guarantee you that an inexpensive cable of the same gauge that wasn't faulty wouldn't have caused you issues. There are as many reports of bad Mon$ter cables as any other brand (inexpensive or expensive)

Basically this doesn't come down to price, it comes down to the gauge of the cable, be it analogue or digital application.

If you can buy a quality 22 ga HDMI cable for $25 vs a 22 ga HDMI cable for $500, you will see and hear no difference. Same goes for similar sized analogue applications.

Even in a single blind test, as discussed earlier in this thread, those charlatans Mon$ter had to go to very thin wires to make a difference in the analogue realm for demonstration purposes.

Double blind tests have never shown a difference! If there's a published double blind test out there that does show a difference, I've not seen it (and you don't count)
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Old 2010-05-28, 12:49 PM   #283
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that is correct, 57.

Like I mentioned, in a pro-install situation, I can never be faced with faulty cable, even if the cable is free of charge.

You are also correct that a quality 22 AWG HDMI at $25 will yield no difference to a an ultra expensive 22 AWG HDMI cable. HOWEVER (here comes the big "but"), in most of my installs (usually in Indonesia and Singapore), I can not afford to buy the 22 AWG cable and oooops, the cable is faulty... or in my case, several times in a row. I need to be sure that the cable will be far less likely to be faulty during these installs. If that means I have to spend 10x the price than so be it rather than changing my flight date by a week (it costs me $200 every date change plus another $200 a day to stay in those countries).

In analog, I still have to disagree with you. I've tested a cheap (but very nice looking ) 12 AWG cable vs a more expensive (but ugly looking -- manufactured for in-wall application) with the same gauge. Almost everyone said "wow, the cheap cable sounds better than the more expensive one". It's not until I revealed to them that the "cheap (looking) cable" is actually the much more expensive but ugly looking because of the in-wall application whereas "the expensive (looking)" cable is actually the cheap cable.

There is a law of diminishing return, of course, beyond a certain price point, I really can't hear the difference regardless how much I really want to (y'know, upgrade-itis).

Anybody reputable here (obviously you are one of them) are more than welcome to borrow my more expensive cable and compare them with the same gauge but far cheaper equivalent and in many, if not most, cases, you will hear the difference, I know I do.

(PS: I don't go with Monster speaker wires, btw, they do NOT sound any better than any cable at any low price at the same AWG, and they are actually far more expensive than the Ambiance mkII I currently use)
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Old 2010-05-28, 12:55 PM   #284
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David, your evidence is still anecdotal. Anecdotes don't cut it with the critical people on this forum. Show me a reputable, published, double blind test showing a difference.

I understand your comments regarding installations, however, I'm not sure that the expensive cables are any more "reliable". Also, any application that has the equipment available should have the cable tested outside the wall, before installation. I realize this is not always possible. Or, the cable can be in a conduit ready to be re-pulled if necessary - I'm sure you don't travel with just one cable, I know that I don't.
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Old 2010-05-28, 12:59 PM   #285
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Quote:
because the test is about DIGITAL signal, we're talking about ANALOG signal.
The purpose of any cable, audio, video, digital or analog is to ensure the signal gets to the far end as faithfully as possible. This means minimal loss and frequency roll off. Test instruments are able to measure differences much smaller than humas can detect with their eyes and ears. If the test gear cannot measure a difference, there's no way you're going to hear or see a difference. Now, as has been mentioned before, going to a very small wire will impede reproduction, by inducing loss. But once you get to a certain size, there's no significant benefit in going larger. High frequency roll off is another issue that can be affected by the wire, but it's not likely to make any noticable effect at audio frequencies. Another issue may be noise picked up by the wire, but that's not a concern at the low impedances and significant power levels used in speakers. Now, please explain how your cables are able to perform better than ordinary lamp cord of appropriate size. What is it about them that causes them to perform so much better?
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