Picture quality on Shaw (I've a new TV)

[couchpotatoe]

Ok. I had a 8 year old Panasonic 27" Gaoo TV. Excellent sharp, crisp picture.
It was paired recently with the Shaw DCT 2500 digital terminal. I used to have the 2100 until the 2500 came out last year.
Now I have purchased a new TV. Its the Panasonic CT34WX54 34" Widescreen HDTV ready TV. Its now on the Shaw DCT 2500.
I am not specifically interested in the HD channels at this moment in time, therefore I still have the DCT 2500.
I use the TV on 4:3 or switch to the "Zoom" widescreen (cuts the top and bottom off...which I know about.)
I have immediately noticed that with this new TV I get that "Digitalized" skin tones and wobbly red cheeks and very tiny "artifacts" that I have always associated with anything "Digital" these days. It is not as sharp. These sort of things were never present on the old analog TV. I spent a long time playing with settings and everything in the menus. Then I disconnected the DCT 2500 and hooked the cable direct to the ANT input on the new TV. This is Shaws cable from their box on the wall outside (I've had Shaw cable since they installed it on our street in the late 90's, with all new cable and equipment.) Its the same sort of picture going through ANT. So I know its not the DCT suddenly giving me grief. Remember, its a great picture on my old TV.
This happened as soon as I put the new TV on....I gather its the nature of the TV and the lines, etc.
Its the same with 4:3 as wide. Of course the wide "Zoom" just makes the digitalized tones and ghosty effects closer!

DVDs are brilliant, and no complaint.

I guess what I am getting at is that I expected at least as good as or better picture in 4:3 at least, even without HD for now. Then an exceptional picture with HD later on.

For all you experts thats been at it for longer....is this normal for this type of new TV thats HDTV ready and all that?

Or have I to get the new HD DCT terminal from Shaw to get improved pictures on the basic cable channels on the new TV? (Even though I won't subscribe to HD channels yet). I very much doubt a HD terminal will change the picture quality for the basic cable? Or does it process those channels better than the DCT 2500 and clean it up? (Sorry I am not familiar with the HD terminal model number).
Don't get me wrong, I understand that HD channels are the better picture on HD TVs, I just expected regular cable channels to look the same or better on the new TV, without that digitalized ghosty odd tones look around people

Thanks, its very much appreciated.

PS...I should add that the DCT 2500 is connected to the new TV with the S-video and the right/left audio cables. Theres no such thing as component outputs on the DCT 2500. Just the basic outputs. Is the yellow Video plug better than S-video by the way? But like I said, even with the cable direct to Ant input, its the same picture anyway.
Thanks

[Nanuuk]

Chances are your set has a line-doubler. It takes the 'poor' Shaw signal and amplifies the snow etc. Can you disable it? On my 3 yr old Hitachi, I cannot. But I only really notice it on the Detroit channels.

[couchpotatoe]

Hi. Thanks.
Yes I do believe it has something like that. I looked online at the specs. Its says it has Enhanced Progressive Scan Doubler.
Its late here now, but I'll try look through the manual and menus tomorrow to see if that can be turned off or something. Maybe its disguised in the menu as something else too.!

EDIT later:
I just had a peek through the manual and TV menu and no where does it mention turning the line doubler off. Theres nothing on the TV in the menu. It mentions the Progressive Scan Doubler on one page of the manual, just one of those notes they have on the page inside a box.
Anyhow, I guess its the nature of the new TVs.
I never did mention that the "digital" channels such as Movie Central are really good pictures. Its those basic cable channels that are a poorer picture. When on the old TV all the pictures on all the channels, Movie Central included, were great.
I'll have to watch more movies now!
It sucks how it amplifies the snow, etc....as I never noticed any snow or imperfections on the old TV. Yeh, yeh, yeh....I know your all saying "Hook the old TV back up then"...!!

[Nanuuk]

Next step might be to upgrade your box and cabling to component or DVI. I use component cabling with my 5100 box. Like I said most of the analogues aren't too bad. The diginets are fine. From other posts on this forum, memebers have said the the analogue PQ is improved with the 6000 series boxes. Good luck!

[Paul Clancy]

All of what you say is well known. Moving from a crt direct view good quality analog set to a large hd projection set of any kind (but certainly more on dlp or lcd) will show grain/ snow/ noise and just generally flaws your direct view never had or showed. Some of this is from blowing up a standard ntsc low res picture and others are inherent to the technology with a low resoulution feed on an hd set. DVD has better resolution and less noise related to transmission so it is better , upconverted sd material to hd (at the source, not by your tv)is better still, true hd is best. This is the nature of big screen tvs, its all about quality of source. Something they don't want to talk about at the retail level because truth scares customers.
The other factor is some sd shaw channels are poor compared to others. Compare a ppv movie to sd nbc/abc/fox and the movie will look much better.
Buy any shaw hd box and most of the hd channels are free (not movie central)....at least so far. Buy the pvr and you are set for years to come. Once you've seen an hd movie or live event in hd theres no going back to sd only.

[57]

If you haven't already, please see the Digital Home FAQ on "poor SD PQ".

[Alan Bealby]

Originally Posted by couchpotatoe

PS...I should add that the DCT 2500 is connected to the new TV with the S-video and the right/left audio cables. Theres no such thing as component outputs on the DCT 2500. Just the basic outputs. Is the yellow Video plug better than S-video by the way? But like I said, even with the cable direct to Ant input, its the same picture anyway.
Thanks

You may find that using the yellow video output (composite video) to connect with gives a better picture. I have a Toshiba 65" RPTV that definitely gives a better picture, on analog TV channels only when connected with the composite video output from the cable box or when using the TV's internal analog tuner. The picture is significantly more noisy when watching the analog TV channels when connected with a S-Video connection or the component video connections to a Shaw cable box. Again in my case, the cable boxes are a DCT2000 and a DCT6412.

You situation may vary as it depends on the combination of processing done in the cable box and how it combines with the processing done in the TV which depends on which video input you are using on the TV. I believe that one of the FAQs on this site goes into the problems with these types of A/V setups invloving cable boxes.

It may also be affected to some degree by how you have set your TV's contrast, brightness and sharpness.

[hdtvman]

I had the same problem using S-video cables and I dropped some $$$'s for Monster Cable S-video cables. The fellow at the AV store I bought my system from suggested that using the composite cable would be better because of the comb filtre. I wasn't sure what he was talking about at the time but followed his advice and all was well. Thankfully they took the S-video cables back and exchanged for regular cables.

When I finally got a HD box, I found that the component cables were the way to go (obviously needed for HD), so this is no longer a problem for me.

Try switching the S-video cables out and see what happens.

Regards,
Dan the HD Man

[57]

What Alan describes in his composite explanation is true because the TV's comb filter is "active" on the composite and inactive on the S-video input, when viewing analogue signals.

See the Digital Home FAQ on "Cables & Connections".

This is also why you often get a superior picture on analogue channels if you split the signal and feed the cable to the TV's internal tuner, where the comb filter is again active on analogue channels. (As discussed in the Digital Home FAQ on "Poor SD PQ", previously mentioned)

[nanaimo]

Well Couchpotato, like the old saying goes - Crap in - crap out. You are now seeing what the real quailty of the feed to you really is. Nothing wrong with your TV. Thats why SD-Digital looks ok. Just wait till you see HD. The feed quality in HD is super. You will see why you paid extra for an 34 HD WS. I just don't care anymore about SD. just watch maybe 4 sd channels. TSN, CNN, weatherChannel and 1 local one. Not only is it the feed but also the equipment making it. You would not believe the new HD film camera's and sound recording equipment. Multi million dollar equipment in 40' + tracker trailers and only used to produce in HD and it shows. Get a 6412, sit back and enjoy and have one for me.

[Paul Clancy]

Sorry I missed that the hd set in question is a 34" dv, just assuming everyone is buying big rp hd sets....obviously not. My previous post related mainly to hd rp sets and the sd quality so you can ignore most of it as "does not apply". I will say that your old gaoo was one of the best analog sets available and on these sets a decent analog source can be quite stunning. Your new set may not have as good an analog stage (comb filter etc). This would not be very surprising since these new sets were made for hd first, analog second. I own a Sony 35xbr48 analog set (pre wega) and have never seen any newer crt dv set look better with analog source and it looks better than any rp crt, digital, or plasma with analog source. The xbr was the best analog set ever made for consumer purchase. Very close to Sonys professional grade broadcast monitors. So you may just have new appreciation for what your old set can do. Your new set will shine with hd so my recommendation to upgrade to an hd box stands.

[42GranDWegA]

If you are considering moving to an HD provider, do not choose Shaw ... you would be wasting your money (like most of us did). I only wish I had gotten some better advice, and made a more educated buying decision ... so, definitely go with BEV HD (if you can).

[couchpotatoe]

Wow....what a lot to take in! Thanks all.

Yep...I have new appreciation for my old Gaoo now.

I was dismayed to find that the new TV (same Panasonic brand) was not the same quality or better picture. I expected great things. This 34" widescreen is the exact same height as my 27" Gaoo, just wider of course. Its a CRT tube, comb filter...blah, blah, blah. I just imagined the 4:3 picture to be identicle at least. Its not. Like I said about the "digitalized" look on analog channels.

I'll look through the FAQ then as suggested. I never saw it before. I'll read up on these things.

I'd love nothing more than a HD receiever and HD channels. But as theres so few HD channels its not really practical for us. I just bought a second DCT 2500 for the bedroom last year.

The Moviecentral (digital) and the DVDs are excellent. Of course HD would be even better, so I look forward to a day we can use the HD.
Just that 99% of our viewing is analog, like for the news, regular sitcoms and kids shows, etc.

One more thing....I shall try change the s-video to the yellow video cable instead. I always thought s-video was the best. But if it helps the comb filter, then I'll change it.
......This might be why for years on my old Gaoo TV that I found that Tv channels on the TV, via the ANT input only (Shaw DCT 2500 turned off) always seemed to look nicer. But we used the DCT 2500 all day all the time, and I always found the same channels to be slightly fuzzier via the receiver, just a slight difference, and of course Moviecentral was nicer, being digital. Well it was hooked up via S-video cable all the time for the receiver.

How many HD channels does Bell ExV have then?

Does anyone else vouch that the 6000 series receivers give better PQ for analog channels? Is that without a HD subscription or with? I guess analog is the same no matter what subscription you have. I don't mind getting one if only to get decent picture with analog now, before we subscribe to HD later. Maybe get BEV..????

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by couchpotatoe

How many HD channels does Bell ExV have then

Officially? 27

In reality- 14 to 18 depending on how you count them. However 90% of what's on in HD is available on Shaw. For example, last night on Bell I had at least 3 HD feeds of the Patriot's game.

[couchpotatoe]

mmmmmm....I'll keep BEV in mind.

Anyway if I got a newer DCT model receiver, other than my current 2500, but not specifically for HD yet, then use the component hookups (Y, Ps, Pr) since the DCT 2500 don't have them, would I see a better analog picture from the analog basic cable type channels on my new TV then?...compared to my DCT 2500 hooked up with the composite (red, white, yellow) cables.

I am just curious the best way to get ALL my regular channels half decent rather than this digitalised, shimmery tone, slight ghosty look. ...other than go to HD subscription, which will of course give me exceptional picture on HD channels. Like I said that Moviecentral is ok, since its a better digital picture thru the DCT 2500 to start with.

Anyhow, that it...for now!

ohhh nope...one more thing. For future use- might sound dumb...are composite and component cables the same thing, just different colored cable? Can I use the red, white, yellow cable on the component hookups (Y, Ps, Pr)? I've tons of these yellow, white, red cables.

I have been reading the excellent FAQ section. I couldn't see anything about the difference in the actual cables construction themselves. To me they look the same, except the ends
Theres tons of great reading and excellent links in the FAQ.
Thanks.