Videotron subscribers: it's time to complain

fussy viewer · 2004-12-03, 01:43 AM

Over the past few months Videotron's increased compression of digital channels has caused a very noticable deterioration in picture quality. All SD channels have visible pixellation, and some are exceptionally bad. A well-informed observer of Videotron's practices (Kaphyr, http://illico2.tripod.com/) has on his web site estimated image resolution and channels per QAM. They are compressed well over the normally accepted limit, and HD channels are also affected.

To minimize complaints, channels with the fewest viewers get squeezed the most. The result - local CBC, CTV and Global channels are even worse than the French networks. For local channels it's easy to see just how bad they are - compare any one to the off air signal from an antenna. The broadcast image is much sharper, and diagonal edges are smooth instead of stair-stepped.

We pay a lot of money to Videotron, who certainly aren't providing anything near the "DVD quality" they advertise. A big retail store would never attempt such behavior, yet Videotron management hopes we won't notice. Many of us have also paid a lot of money to enjoy high definition TV, but they assume we will happily accept a watered-down version. If we don't start complaining now, it will only get worse. They are supposed to be upgrading their bandwidth capacity, but even when that happens, a dismal standard for picture quality will already be set.

I have seen on this forum that complaints to the CRTC can get results. They may not regulate picture quality or false advertising, but if the CRTC receives enough complaints they might think about it. Another organization, the Cable Television Standards Council, is established by the Canadian cable TV industry to ensure high standards of customer service. The list of members includes most cable companies, but not Videotron...

I don't know if Videotron actually reacts to dissatisfied customers, but maybe a barrage of complaints will have an effect. The link to their technical support is below. In your complaint, maybe threaten to switch to Bell ExpressVu, which has better picture quality. I am thinking of switching myself.

Videotron tech support:
www.videotron.com/services/en/assistance.jsp

CRTC (complaints):
www.crtc.gc.ca/RapidsCCM/Register.asp?lang=E

thenewdc · 2004-12-03, 05:28 AM

IF Videotron is using 256 QAM they should be able to squeeze up to 13 channels into a 6MHZ channel at about 3Mb/s for each channel without noticeable problems. I can see if more than that is in that space, then you would see noticeable deterioration. Rogers digital channels for the most part look really good, with the exception of some of their Timeshifts, but I think thats source related since they get them from Cancom, and Rogers has way more digital channels than other cable companies so they must also be maxing out their bandwidth too.

Jake · 2004-12-03, 08:08 AM

For example in Montreal,

QAM09 contains 18 channels (incl. 3 audio)
QAM15 contains 19 channels (incl. 5 audio)
QAM03 contains 18 channels (incl. 4 audio)
QAM19 contains 18 channels (incl. 4 audio)
QAM21 contains 13 channels.

I agree Videotron could be doing better. I find myself hunting the channels to find a show I am watching that has a better signal or DD audio.

thenewdc · 2004-12-03, 11:33 AM

Wow, 18 channels on a QAM, thats way too much. I then can sympathize with what you're experiencing with poor picture quality. I think that is totally
unacceptable. 13 at most should give good PQ, since you really need 3Mb/s per channel. Videotron must not be rebuilt to 860MHZ if they are doing this.

captqbec · 2004-12-03, 06:50 PM

Hi guys,

They've cramped more channels lately and I did notice deterioration as if watching a bad divx...

When I asked Videotron what they were gonna do about bad picture quality, their incredible response was that most people don't own a high end tv and don't notice the compression side effects

I almost fell off my chair.....that was the most incompetent response I've ever heard from any kind of tech support....imagine, the poor kid (cust. serv.) consulted second level techs and came back with this answer....

I own a Panny 60" lcd and it looks like crap on SD channels. I wonder to what extend it would look better with ExpressVue...

Jake · 2004-12-03, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenewdc

Videotron must not be rebuilt to 860MHZ if they are doing this.

Montreal goes up to 745MHz according to the table. I think Gatineau is very similar.

fussy viewer · 2004-12-04, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captqbec

When I asked Videotron what they were gonna do about bad picture quality, their incredible response was that most people don't own a high end tv and don't notice the compression side effects

Tell them you only have a small TV, and the picture still looks crummy...

maxyvits · 2004-12-08, 07:30 AM

Good idea! I just sent off my complaint letter.

maxyvits · 2004-12-10, 05:49 PM

Here's what they wrote back to my letter:

Dear maxyvits:

We have just carried out routine tests we note that the reading of the signals to your Illico are excellent.

We suggest you to contact us by phone. One of our technical support representatives will be happy to answer your call seven days a week, twenty-four hours a day.

fussy viewer · 2004-12-12, 03:35 PM

Here's the reply I received from Videotron to my complaint about fuzzy image quality:

=======================

Dear sir,

We made no compression change over the past few months, we broadcast the exact signal we receive from our providers, nothing more, nothing less. We are aware that some standard channels may look fuzzy on a high-definition TV so we are working on increasing the sharpness of standard channels on our HD terminals.

We hope that you will remain one of our satisfied customers for a long time. Do not hesitate to contact us if you have any question.

Steve Lemelin

Videotron technical support

========================

More baloney. Although not all the signals they get are full resolution, the difference between their best and worst local channels is pretty obvious. And the resolution info on Kaphyr's web page corresponds with what I see on my screen.

I wonder how they intend to "increase the sharpness" on HD terminals, without going back to full resolution.

catechumen · 2004-12-20, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captqbec

Hi guys,

They've cramped more channels lately and I did notice deterioration as if watching a bad divx...

When I asked Videotron what they were gonna do about bad picture quality, their incredible response was that most people don't own a high end tv and don't notice the compression side effects

I almost fell off my chair.....that was the most incompetent response I've ever heard from any kind of tech support....imagine, the poor kid (cust. serv.) consulted second level techs and came back with this answer....

I own a Panny 60" lcd and it looks like crap on SD channels. I wonder to what extend it would look better with ExpressVue...

I've got both Videotron and Starchoice. The picture quality isn't even in the same ballpark especially in HD. Starcoice looks like I'm looking through a window, Videotron looks like I'm looking through a screen door. As a result I'm using Starchoice pretty much exclusively. I've kept the Videotron Illico since I've got the High Speed Internet. I'm not an expert in this area but apparently the Starchoice channels are significantly less compressed than Expressvu. If you check the other forums that topic comes up fairly frequently. Starchoice is pretty much known for great picture quality, good customer service and O.K. channel selection compared with Expressvu. Expressvu has O.K. picture quality, poor customer service and great channel selection.

There's my two cents worth.

dynot · 2004-12-20, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catechumen

...Videotron looks like I'm looking through a screen door...

Interesting. Are you sure this is not a hardware issue? Are both your sources connected the same way? Is your Videotron set up Correctly?

I have the SA8000HD box connected with component and I must say I'm impressed with the picture. Certainly not anywhere close to a screen door effect. Unfortunately, I don't have anything else to compare to so maybe its a case of not knowing what I'm missing. But my reaction - as well as those of many guests who have viewed HD on my GWIII - is one of amazement at the near-3D quality of the picture (especially with MNF & any of those Pixar animation movies).

BTW, my signal strength is quite good somewhere around -1 (where 0 is the best).

fussy viewer · 2004-12-24, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynot

Interesting. Are you sure this is not a hardware issue? Are both your sources connected the same way? Is your Videotron set up Correctly?

I have the SA8000HD box connected with component and I must say I'm impressed with the picture. Certainly not anywhere close to a screen door effect. Unfortunately, I don't have anything else to compare to so maybe its a case of not knowing what I'm missing. But my reaction - as well as those of many guests who have viewed HD on my GWIII - is one of amazement at the near-3D quality of the picture (especially with MNF & any of those Pixar animation movies).

BTW, my signal strength is quite good somewhere around -1 (where 0 is the best).

Sure, it will look great to someone who hasn't seen HD before, but not as good as it *should* look. Animation is the most impressive since it's created digitally, not transferred from film. As for SD, many of Videotron's SD channels are truly awful quality.

Signal strength won't make any difference until it's below -10 dB or so, then you'll get noticeable problems like pixellation.

dynot · 2004-12-24, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fussy viewer

Sure, it will look great to someone who hasn't seen HD before, but not as good as it *should* look.

FV, I agree with this part.

However, you have to agree that if someone sees SDE on a HD broadcast there's something unsual going on somewhere.

I noticed you listed the SA8000HD in your profile. Am I to assume you're not satisifed with Videotron's HD PQ? Should I start considering my alternatives?

distox · 2004-12-29, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fussy viewer

Over the past few months Videotron's increased compression of digital channels has caused a very noticable deterioration in picture quality. All SD channels have visible pixellation, and some are exceptionally bad. A well-informed observer of Videotron's practices (Kaphyr, http://illico2.tripod.com/) has on his web site estimated image resolution and channels per QAM. They are compressed well over the normally accepted limit, and HD channels are also affected.

Videotron tech support:
www.videotron.com/services/en/assistance.jsp

CRTC (complaints):
www.crtc.gc.ca/RapidsCCM/Register.asp?lang=E

FV, count me in! Do you (or anyone) have proof of Videotron's increased compression? I plan to send a complaint as well. It would be better if I was armed with facts. I wonder if there is a way to reach more Videotron HD users?

2004-12-03, 01:43 AM	#1
fussy viewer Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Montreal Posts: 63	Videotron subscribers: it's time to complain Over the past few months Videotron's increased compression of digital channels has caused a very noticable deterioration in picture quality. All SD channels have visible pixellation, and some are exceptionally bad. A well-informed observer of Videotron's practices (Kaphyr, http://illico2.tripod.com/) has on his web site estimated image resolution and channels per QAM. They are compressed well over the normally accepted limit, and HD channels are also affected. To minimize complaints, channels with the fewest viewers get squeezed the most. The result - local CBC, CTV and Global channels are even worse than the French networks. For local channels it's easy to see just how bad they are - compare any one to the off air signal from an antenna. The broadcast image is much sharper, and diagonal edges are smooth instead of stair-stepped. We pay a lot of money to Videotron, who certainly aren't providing anything near the "DVD quality" they advertise. A big retail store would never attempt such behavior, yet Videotron management hopes we won't notice. Many of us have also paid a lot of money to enjoy high definition TV, but they assume we will happily accept a watered-down version. If we don't start complaining now, it will only get worse. They are supposed to be upgrading their bandwidth capacity, but even when that happens, a dismal standard for picture quality will already be set. I have seen on this forum that complaints to the CRTC can get results. They may not regulate picture quality or false advertising, but if the CRTC receives enough complaints they might think about it. Another organization, the Cable Television Standards Council, is established by the Canadian cable TV industry to ensure high standards of customer service. The list of members includes most cable companies, but not Videotron... I don't know if Videotron actually reacts to dissatisfied customers, but maybe a barrage of complaints will have an effect. The link to their technical support is below. In your complaint, maybe threaten to switch to Bell ExpressVu, which has better picture quality. I am thinking of switching myself. Videotron tech support: www.videotron.com/services/en/assistance.jsp CRTC (complaints): www.crtc.gc.ca/RapidsCCM/Register.asp?lang=E __________________ Panasonic TC-P50V10, SA8000HD, OPPO BDP-83, Yahama RX-V863

2004-12-03, 08:08 AM	#3
Jake Moderator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Gatineau and Ottawa Posts: 7,625	For example in Montreal, QAM09 contains 18 channels (incl. 3 audio) QAM15 contains 19 channels (incl. 5 audio) QAM03 contains 18 channels (incl. 4 audio) QAM19 contains 18 channels (incl. 4 audio) QAM21 contains 13 channels. I agree Videotron could be doing better. I find myself hunting the channels to find a show I am watching that has a better signal or DD audio. __________________ Tip: See an offending post? Don't reply, report it by clicking on the 'Report Post' icon.

2004-12-03, 06:50 PM	#5
captqbec Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Montreal Posts: 147	Astounding response from Videotron... Hi guys, They've cramped more channels lately and I did notice deterioration as if watching a bad divx... When I asked Videotron what they were gonna do about bad picture quality, their incredible response was that most people don't own a high end tv and don't notice the compression side effects I almost fell off my chair.....that was the most incompetent response I've ever heard from any kind of tech support....imagine, the poor kid (cust. serv.) consulted second level techs and came back with this answer.... I own a Panny 60" lcd and it looks like crap on SD channels. I wonder to what extend it would look better with ExpressVue...

2004-12-12, 03:35 PM	#10
fussy viewer Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Montreal Posts: 63	Videotron's Reply Here's the reply I received from Videotron to my complaint about fuzzy image quality: ======================= Dear sir, We made no compression change over the past few months, we broadcast the exact signal we receive from our providers, nothing more, nothing less. We are aware that some standard channels may look fuzzy on a high-definition TV so we are working on increasing the sharpness of standard channels on our HD terminals. We hope that you will remain one of our satisfied customers for a long time. Do not hesitate to contact us if you have any question. Steve Lemelin Videotron technical support ======================== More baloney. Although not all the signals they get are full resolution, the difference between their best and worst local channels is pretty obvious. And the resolution info on Kaphyr's web page corresponds with what I see on my screen. I wonder how they intend to "increase the sharpness" on HD terminals, without going back to full resolution. __________________ Panasonic TC-P50V10, SA8000HD, OPPO BDP-83, Yahama RX-V863

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

2004-12-03, 05:28 AM	#2
thenewdc Veteran Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,725	IF Videotron is using 256 QAM they should be able to squeeze up to 13 channels into a 6MHZ channel at about 3Mb/s for each channel without noticeable problems. I can see if more than that is in that space, then you would see noticeable deterioration. Rogers digital channels for the most part look really good, with the exception of some of their Timeshifts, but I think thats source related since they get them from Cancom, and Rogers has way more digital channels than other cable companies so they must also be maxing out their bandwidth too.

2004-12-03, 11:33 AM	#4
thenewdc Veteran Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,725	Wow, 18 channels on a QAM, thats way too much. I then can sympathize with what you're experiencing with poor picture quality. I think that is totally unacceptable. 13 at most should give good PQ, since you really need 3Mb/s per channel. Videotron must not be rebuilt to 860MHZ if they are doing this.

2004-12-08, 07:30 AM	#8
maxyvits Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Montreal, QC Posts: 178	Good idea! I just sent off my complaint letter.

2004-12-10, 05:49 PM	#9
maxyvits Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Montreal, QC Posts: 178	Here's what they wrote back to my letter: Dear maxyvits: We have just carried out routine tests we note that the reading of the signals to your Illico are excellent. We suggest you to contact us by phone. One of our technical support representatives will be happy to answer your call seven days a week, twenty-four hours a day.