Plasma Flicker Discussion (Split from Plasma LCD Thread) - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

audacity · 2011-12-29, 01:31 PM

ctrider,

It sounds to be like what you want is a LCD TV with a matte screen. Generally Plasmas are best in environments with low levels of ambient light. I've been doing a lot of TV research lately, and I've discovered that Plasma displays have a serious flicker problem.

cooper83 · 2011-12-29, 01:44 PM

audacity, please stop spreading false information. Just because you can see flicker does not mean everyone can. This is the first I've heard of this issue after 4 years of owning a plasma, so I don't see how it can be a "serious problem."

ctrider, check your inbox for a PM.

audacity · 2011-12-29, 02:04 PM

Quote:

This is the first I've heard of this issue after 4 years of owning a plasma, so I don't see how it can be a "serious problem."

So you're saying that because you're unaware of an issue, it must not exist or be a serious problem. Ridiculous.

Many (perhaps even most) people ran their desktop CRTs at 60Hz for years (since Windows would default to 60Hz) and weren't aware of a problem, or that it was likely the root cause for their eye strain issues, but that doesn't mean the problem didn't exist.

Don't believe me? Go to a Future Shop or Best Buy that has Plasma and LCD displays side-by-side and do the test I described using your peripheral vision in the other thread and you'll see a flicker.

PhotoJim · 2012-01-09, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by audacity

ctrider,

It sounds to be like what you want is a LCD TV with a matte screen. Generally Plasmas are best in environments with low levels of ambient light. I've been doing a lot of TV research lately, and I've discovered that Plasma displays have a serious flicker problem.

I'm a migraine sufferer and, as a result, am evtremely sensitive to flicker, However, I've had no problems whatsoever with my 46" Panasonic plasma causing me eyestrain. (I don't look at it peripherally, so perhaps it is real, but it is inconsequential.)

Fluorescent tubes and CFLs, on the other hand, have a visible flicker to me in most cases.

Plasma's not perfect - it's terrible for static images like video games and computers unless used carefully - but nothing short of a CRT beats them for contrast and colour fidelity, and the market has pretty much given up on CRTs because of their size and weight.

jshel101 · 2012-04-12, 09:15 AM

I have had a Plasma for 5 years now and have NEVER noticed a flicker problem, or even read about flicker problems with plasmas.

I bought a Samsung 55D6500 last week. I find the HD TV PQ excellent. What I do not like is the "soap opera effect" when watching movies. I have done everything that has been suggested on the web to fix this. Game Mode on, Auto Blur off, etc.. I still see this problem when watching movies. I am going to exchange it for a plasma tomorrow. It sucks though, I ordered 3D glasses for it online. SO I guess I will have to sell these privately.

eimaj · 2012-04-12, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jshel101

I have had a Plasma for 5 years now and have NEVER noticed a flicker problem, or even read about flicker problems with plasmas.

It is there. I am one of those like audacity that is sensitive to flicker of any sort, especially fluorescent lights. They make my eyes itch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jshel101

I bought a Samsung 55D6500 last week. I find the HD TV PQ excellent. What I do not like is the "soap opera effect" when watching movies. I have done everything that has been suggested on the web to fix this. Game Mode on, Auto Blur off, etc.. I still see this problem when watching movies. I am going to exchange it for a plasma tomorrow. It sucks though, I ordered 3D glasses for it online. SO I guess I will have to sell these privately.

You need to turn Auto Motion Plus off. This gets rid of the soap opera effect. And put it to Movie or Cinema mode. These are the best for viewing movies on a Samsung.

audacity · 2012-04-12, 11:12 AM

To those who say they can't sense the flicker of Plasma TVs, next time you're in Future Shop or Best Buy (or anywhere with a wall of TVs that include both plasma and LCD TVs) do the following test to find the flicker:

Pick a point on the wall above the TVs, and look at it and you can easily see which TVs below that point flicker and which do not. Don't set this point so high that the TVs are outside of your peripheral vision (since your peripheral vision is more sensitive to movement for some evolutionary reasons) but it probably needs to be outside of the focal point of your vision.

Also, if the picture on the screen is extremely dark (not much light is being produced by the TV) then the flicker is less detectable, and if the screen is mostly white then I don't see how anyone could miss the flickering from plasmas. In my experience back in the day when everyone was using CRTs for computer monitors @ 60Hz, when I showed people how to change the refresh rate back and forth and how to detect display flicker I've never met anyone who couldn't detect display flicker when using their peripheral vision.

jshel101 · 2012-04-12, 11:23 AM

lol, and how many people watch TV with their peripheral vision? No wonder I didn't notice it. I guess Plasma manufacturers should be putting this as a warning to customers.

cooper83 · 2012-04-12, 11:25 AM

This crap again? I thought we were done with this. Why the heck would we purposely seek out and induce flicker? If you can see it, then great, congratulations. But for the rest of us lowly humans who lack superpowers, let us enjoy our plasma TV's and the superior picture it provides.

audacity · 2012-04-12, 12:33 PM

When people used CRTs @60Hz, it caused eye strain. This was because of the flicker. The users didn't know why they were getting the resulting headaches, but they were.

In most cases, after adjusting the refresh rate to the max that the monitor/video card combo that they were using would support at their preferred resolution (usually between 85Hz-120Hz) the user reported that their eye strain went away. Indeed, when many users reported that LCD displays on their computer didn't cause the eye strain that the CRTs did, this probably meant that their CRT was running at a low refresh rate.

Quote:

This crap again? I thought we were done with this. Why the heck would we purposely seek out and induce flicker?

I'm not sure if you're purposefully being obtuse or if you honestly fail to comprehend the negative effects of display flicker, and why it is desirable to have a display that doesn't flicker.

Quote:

But for the rest of us lowly humans who lack superpowers, let us enjoy our plasma TV's and the superior picture it provides.

1. It doesn't require superpowers to be affected by display flicker. In fact, it affects everyone - just some people are able to consciously notice it, others don't consciously notice it but still get headaches, and some people are seemingly unaffected. In fact, everyone has a flicker fusion threshold, and I would encourage you to learn about it rather than looking like a fool by suggesting the requirement of "superpowers" to notice it.

2. Its amusing whenever one encounters the "******" reaction where you get upset when anyone critiques a product that you purchased.

eimaj · 2012-04-12, 12:37 PM

I notice it staring right at a plasma, not peripherally like audacity suggests. Just one of those things that is irritating...

audacity · 2012-04-12, 12:46 PM

Yes, it is uncommon for people to be able to see flickering @60Hz when looking directly at the display, but I'd wager than most people can see it with their peripheral vision. At least, that is my experience after helping a lot of people "fix" their displays a decade ago when everyone was still using CRTs.

Mik James · 2012-06-05, 11:43 AM

Don't plasmas have the 600hz subfield drive going on? If you can see flicker at 600hz than you are indeed superhuman

audacity · 2012-06-05, 12:17 PM

Mik James,

Watch this video. Can you not see the flicker that the video camera can pick up when filming the two TVs side by side?

In earlier posts I've described how you can see plasma flicker even if your eyes are not sensitive to it. The vast majority of people can see the flicker using their peripheral vision, especially on the parts of the image that display white. So, for example, a Apple advertisement would be an extreme case of flicker. Go to a Future Shop or Best Buy TV wall and try the technique out if you don't believe me.

The 600Hz specification bit is misleading because they're not talking about the frequency that the phosphors get excited, then dim, and then get excited again by ultraviolet photons. When they say 600Hz they're talking about the frame rate converter, that is, how fast the frame buffer updates and blends together different frames from your source input.

I'm getting the impression that convincing Plasma TV fans that their TVs flicker is like trying to convince a oil company executive that climate change is real, or trying to convince a creationist that evolution is real. It's not that they can't understand, it's that they don't want to understand.

Mik James · 2012-06-05, 12:32 PM

Don't worry mate i believe in climate change, who doesn't these days.
So how does the sub field drive and focused field drive work, manufacturers market them as a way to reduce flicker by playing the same frame 10 times, are they being pretentious?
I see all sorts of flicker on old crts when they run at anything below 85hz but it doesn't seem to give me headaches (I'm typing this on a crt rear projection running at 1366x768 interlaced at 60hz.
I'm not a plasma fan for any sort of flicker free experience, i just like the prices (not to happy about power draw which is why i'm still using projection

I can definetly see the flicker in that video, i thought i could see a slight flicker in the lcd as well but then i realized it was just the weird motion juddering during pans that causes fine lines like leaves on trees to rapidly double/flicker. If that's a 240hz lcd then hopefully the motion issues are greatly exaggerated by the camera like the plasma flicker.

2011-12-29, 01:31 PM	#1
audacity Veteran Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: 127.0.0.1 Posts: 1,802	Plasma Flicker Discussion (Split from Plasma LCD Thread) ctrider, It sounds to be like what you want is a LCD TV with a matte screen. Generally Plasmas are best in environments with low levels of ambient light. I've been doing a lot of TV research lately, and I've discovered that Plasma displays have a serious flicker problem.

2011-12-29, 01:44 PM	#2
cooper83 Veteran Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Victoria, BC Posts: 2,537	audacity, please stop spreading false information. Just because you can see flicker does not mean everyone can. This is the first I've heard of this issue after 4 years of owning a plasma, so I don't see how it can be a "serious problem." ctrider, check your inbox for a PM. __________________ Panasonic TH-42PE7U plasma, Toshiba HD-D3, PS3, Shaw DCX3400, Yamaha HTR-6160, Polk 6.1, Belkin PF30, Harmony 700

2012-04-12, 11:25 AM	#9
cooper83 Veteran Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Victoria, BC Posts: 2,537	This crap again? I thought we were done with this. Why the heck would we purposely seek out and induce flicker? If you can see it, then great, congratulations. But for the rest of us lowly humans who lack superpowers, let us enjoy our plasma TV's and the superior picture it provides. __________________ Panasonic TH-42PE7U plasma, Toshiba HD-D3, PS3, Shaw DCX3400, Yamaha HTR-6160, Polk 6.1, Belkin PF30, Harmony 700

2012-04-12, 12:37 PM	#11
eimaj Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,491	I notice it staring right at a plasma, not peripherally like audacity suggests. Just one of those things that is irritating... __________________ tech junkie, but recently it's been junkie tech Last edited by 57; 2012-04-12 at 01:56 PM. Reason: Inflammatory remark removed

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2012-04-12, 09:15 AM	#5
jshel101 Veteran Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Calgary Posts: 1,712	I have had a Plasma for 5 years now and have NEVER noticed a flicker problem, or even read about flicker problems with plasmas. I bought a Samsung 55D6500 last week. I find the HD TV PQ excellent. What I do not like is the "soap opera effect" when watching movies. I have done everything that has been suggested on the web to fix this. Game Mode on, Auto Blur off, etc.. I still see this problem when watching movies. I am going to exchange it for a plasma tomorrow. It sucks though, I ordered 3D glasses for it online. SO I guess I will have to sell these privately.

2012-04-12, 11:12 AM	#7
audacity Veteran Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: 127.0.0.1 Posts: 1,802	To those who say they can't sense the flicker of Plasma TVs, next time you're in Future Shop or Best Buy (or anywhere with a wall of TVs that include both plasma and LCD TVs) do the following test to find the flicker: Pick a point on the wall above the TVs, and look at it and you can easily see which TVs below that point flicker and which do not. Don't set this point so high that the TVs are outside of your peripheral vision (since your peripheral vision is more sensitive to movement for some evolutionary reasons) but it probably needs to be outside of the focal point of your vision. Also, if the picture on the screen is extremely dark (not much light is being produced by the TV) then the flicker is less detectable, and if the screen is mostly white then I don't see how anyone could miss the flickering from plasmas. In my experience back in the day when everyone was using CRTs for computer monitors @ 60Hz, when I showed people how to change the refresh rate back and forth and how to detect display flicker I've never met anyone who couldn't detect display flicker when using their peripheral vision.

2012-04-12, 11:23 AM	#8
jshel101 Veteran Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Calgary Posts: 1,712	lol, and how many people watch TV with their peripheral vision? No wonder I didn't notice it. I guess Plasma manufacturers should be putting this as a warning to customers.

2012-04-12, 12:46 PM	#12
audacity Veteran Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: 127.0.0.1 Posts: 1,802	Yes, it is uncommon for people to be able to see flickering @60Hz when looking directly at the display, but I'd wager than most people can see it with their peripheral vision. At least, that is my experience after helping a lot of people "fix" their displays a decade ago when everyone was still using CRTs.

2012-06-05, 11:43 AM	#13
Mik James Rookie Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 24	Don't plasmas have the 600hz subfield drive going on? If you can see flicker at 600hz than you are indeed superhuman

2012-06-05, 12:17 PM	#14
audacity Veteran Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: 127.0.0.1 Posts: 1,802	Mik James, Watch this video. Can you not see the flicker that the video camera can pick up when filming the two TVs side by side? In earlier posts I've described how you can see plasma flicker even if your eyes are not sensitive to it. The vast majority of people can see the flicker using their peripheral vision, especially on the parts of the image that display white. So, for example, a Apple advertisement would be an extreme case of flicker. Go to a Future Shop or Best Buy TV wall and try the technique out if you don't believe me. The 600Hz specification bit is misleading because they're not talking about the frequency that the phosphors get excited, then dim, and then get excited again by ultraviolet photons. When they say 600Hz they're talking about the frame rate converter, that is, how fast the frame buffer updates and blends together different frames from your source input. I'm getting the impression that convincing Plasma TV fans that their TVs flicker is like trying to convince a oil company executive that climate change is real, or trying to convince a creationist that evolution is real. It's not that they can't understand, it's that they don't want to understand.

2012-06-05, 12:32 PM	#15
Mik James Rookie Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 24	Don't worry mate i believe in climate change, who doesn't these days. So how does the sub field drive and focused field drive work, manufacturers market them as a way to reduce flicker by playing the same frame 10 times, are they being pretentious? I see all sorts of flicker on old crts when they run at anything below 85hz but it doesn't seem to give me headaches (I'm typing this on a crt rear projection running at 1366x768 interlaced at 60hz. I'm not a plasma fan for any sort of flicker free experience, i just like the prices (not to happy about power draw which is why i'm still using projection I can definetly see the flicker in that video, i thought i could see a slight flicker in the lcd as well but then i realized it was just the weird motion juddering during pans that causes fine lines like leaves on trees to rapidly double/flicker. If that's a 240hz lcd then hopefully the motion issues are greatly exaggerated by the camera like the plasma flicker.