Status of ATSC-MH (Mobile) Stations in Canada

[CamDAB]

Note that the Hauppauge 950Q and WinTV v7.2d did NOT scan a 25.2 M/H virtual channel from Toronto when I tested it after updating to v7.2d of the software this afternoon. (It didn't before either)

Not sure if it's a hardware or software limitation.

Windows 7 x64 SP1

Cameron

[x4mer]

According to Hauppauge's site, the Aero-M is the only tuner of theirs, supporting ATSC M/H.

[majortom]

That's right, and it's the only reason I bought one. Just to play around with it when the time came.

posts 79 thru 85 in the main MH thread.
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...t=63639&page=6


Edit: went lookin thru that WinTV logfile directory and didn't see very much that looked useful to me.

[majortom]

snippet from WinTV's log.txt while tuned to 5.2
If anything in here is signaling, no ya can't record the program, maybe someone can point it out???
Personally, don't know anything about the standard.

<signaling>
  <table_id>db</table_id>
  <section_syntax_indicator>0</section_syntax_indicator>
  <private_indicator>1</private_indicator>
  <SMT_MH_protocol_version>0</SMT_MH_protocol_version>
  <ensemble_id>1</ensemble_id>
  <version_number>2</version_number>
  <current_next_indicator>1</current_next_indicator>
  <section_number>0</section_number>
  <last_section_number>0</last_section_number>
  <services>
    <num_MH_services>1</num_MH_services>
    <service>
      <service_number>0</service_number>
      <MH_service_id>1282</MH_service_id>
      <MH_service_id_virt>5.2</MH_service_id_virt>
      <multi_ensemble_service>0</multi_ensemble_service>
      <MH_service_status>2</MH_service_status>
      <SP_indicator>0</SP_indicator>
      <short_MH_service_name>CBC E</short_MH_service_name>
      <MH_service_category>1</MH_service_category>
      <MH_service_category_desc>TV (Informative only)</MH_service_category_desc>
      <IP_version_flag>0</IP_version_flag>
      <service_source_IP_address_flag>0</service_source_IP_address_flag>
      <service_destination_IP_address_flag>0</service_destination_IP_address_flag>
      <components>
        <num_components>2</num_components>
        <component>
          <component_number>0</component_number>
          <component_source_IP_address_flag>0</component_source_IP_address_flag>
          <essential_component_indicator>1</essential_component_indicator>
          <component_destination_IP_address_flag>1</component_destination_IP_address_flag>
          <port_num_count>2</port_num_count>
          <component_destination_UDP_port_num>10012</component_destination_UDP_port_num>
          <component_destination_IP_address>239.1.1.8</component_destination_IP_address>
          <component_desc>
            <num_descriptors>1</num_descriptors>
            <MH_component_descriptor>
              <descriptor_tag>bc</descriptor_tag>
              <descriptor_length>20</descriptor_length>
              <component_type>37</component_type>
              <component_desc>HE AAC v2 audio stream component</component_desc>
              <component_encryption_flag>0</component_encryption_flag>
              <ISO_639_language_code>eng</ISO_639_language_code>
              <RTP_clock_rate>48000</RTP_clock_rate>
              <constant_duration>0</constant_duration>
              <sampling_rate>3</sampling_rate>
              <audio_service_type>0</audio_service_type>
              <audio_service_desc>main audio service: complete main (CM)</audio_service_desc>
              <audio_channel_association>0</audio_channel_association>
              <num_configs>1</num_configs>
              <audio_config>
                <profile_level_id>15</profile_level_id>
                <num_audio_channels>2</num_audio_channels>
                <config_size>4</config_size>
                <config>eb098800</config>
              </audio_config>
            </MH_component_descriptor>
          </component_desc>
        </component>
        <component>
          <component_number>1</component_number>
          <component_source_IP_address_flag>0</component_source_IP_address_flag>
          <essential_component_indicator>1</essential_component_indicator>
          <component_destination_IP_address_flag>1</component_destination_IP_address_flag>
          <port_num_count>2</port_num_count>
          <component_destination_UDP_port_num>10010</component_destination_UDP_port_num>
          <component_destination_IP_address>239.1.1.8</component_destination_IP_address>
          <component_desc>
            <num_descriptors>1</num_descriptors>
            <MH_component_descriptor>
              <descriptor_tag>bc</descriptor_tag>
              <descriptor_length>6</descriptor_length>
              <component_type>35</component_type>
              <component_desc>H.264 AVC video or H.264 SVC base layer stream component</component_desc>
              <component_encryption_flag>0</component_encryption_flag>
              <profile_idc>66</profile_idc>
              <constraint_set0_flag>1</constraint_set0_flag>
              <constraint_set1_flag>1</constraint_set1_flag>
              <constraint_set2_flag>1</constraint_set2_flag>
              <AVC_compatible_flags>0</AVC_compatible_flags>
              <level_idc>13</level_idc>
              <AVC_24_hour_picture_flag>0</AVC_24_hour_picture_flag>
              <AVC_still_present>0</AVC_still_present>
            </MH_component_descriptor>
          </component_desc>
        </component>
      </components>
      <MH_SMT_desc>
        <num_descriptors>0</num_descriptors>
      </MH_SMT_desc>
    </service>
    <ensemble_desc>
      <num_descriptors>0</num_descriptors>
    </ensemble_desc>
  </services>
</signaling>

[stampeder]

<private_indicator>1</private_indicator>

Bingo, no dice for recording. Welcome to the Broadcast Flag!!! Importantly it is the first flag set, so even if the tuner can easily handle the subsequent signal it cannot bypass that flag... That's all she wrote, and there is no point in trying to get it to resolve the subsequent broadcast requirements.

Having said that, there are ways around this supposed entry gate but we will not be able to discuss that here in this forum.

Again, I hope that Professor Michael Geist will be alerted to this new situation and will be able to help us understand whether it is legal or not.

[BCF]

stampeder and others:
Does this Broadcast Flag exist or can exist on regular ATSC (OTA) channel broadcasting??

If so, there's really no point in investing in an HTPC, which I've been strongly considering.

[stampeder]

Nope, the Broadcast Flag is not implemented on standard ATSC DTV broadcasts in Canada at this time, although there is provision in the standard for it.

Back to Mobile ATSC M/H discussion.

[Trip]

While I hate to continue an off-topic discussion, there does exist a broadcast flag in ATSC, but it is largely not implemented. There are some stations in the US transmitting it but most receivers don't respect it anyway. If you look at certain stations on RabbitEars, for example WCCB in Charlotte NC, you'll see a red flag symbol which indicates the presence of the broadcast flag on that station.

Okay, back on topic we go.

- Trip

[majortom]

Some decent VHF tonight, found CKCO VHF 13 from Kitchener barely getting here. Pixelating too much to be watchable on ATSC using the TV or the PC tuner. As advertised though, the ATSC-MH signal works like a champ. Same story, can't record it.
snippet of the SNR below ATSC threshold as reported by a regular ATSC tuner.

$ femon -a1
FE: Samsung S5H1409 QAM/8VSB Frontend (ATSC)
status       | signal -848 | snr 14.0 dB | ber 0 | unc 0 | 
status       | signal -848 | snr 14.0 dB | ber 0 | unc 0 | 
status       | signal -848 | snr 14.0 dB | ber 0 | unc 0 |

[majortom]

This is interesting, adjusted my antenna with the rotor to the point the ATSC-MH signal dropped out, then bumped back just enough to lock it in again. Had to move the antenna > 70 degrees from where it was at peak, past Erie, PA to get the MH signal from Kitchener to fade out.
Went and checked the signal on the spectrum analyser and I see the ATSC Pilot at ~ -93 dBm. I usually see the ATSC pilot at around -82, -83 when ATSC signals are marginal.

[user]

I can't imagine it would be very hard for someone to make software that ignores these broadcast flags, unless the signals become encrypted.

[stampeder]

For regular ATSC reception, MythTV ignores the Broadcast Flag on the software side, and pcdhtv ignores them on the hardware side, so you would be okay with those. Regarding ATSC M/H I would like to know how to bypass the Broadcast Flag too.

[CamDAB]

My perceptions are that the broadcast record inhibit flag is a discussion for the Copyright Modernization Act thread elsewhere. :-)

The history of these types of content control tends to go like this:

1) Display devices bypass these (ratings excepted)
2) Active routing equipment (switches, video routers etc) in the US at least must obey it
3) Recording devices must adhere to it.

'Nuf on that.

I think that at least M/H will survive rough reception a lot better then standard ATSC.

Cameron

[majortom]

actually, in the US the broadcast flag was contested in court and the FCC's desired rule to mandate the flag was struck down by the courts in 2005. So, up until now this is the first we've seen it become an issue since. But, obviously these stations are in Canada, not the US.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/12074...verturned.html

BTW, if anyone is aware of any SW other than the Hauppauge WinTV that will Play an ATSC-MH program,
I'd be eager to try that out also.

[majortom]

This program will allow any legacy ATSC PC based tuner hardware to
play an ATSC MH signal. It is commercial Shareware with a 7 day trial, so it's not free. But if ya have a legacy ATSC tuner and just wanna play with these for a while, I just tested it with the eVGA inDtube ATSC Tuner I have and it seems to work.

Apparently a license is ~ 12 bux. Remains to be seen whether it's worth it or not.

http://www.mobile-dtv-viewer.com/DownloadATSC.html

below it is playing CBC French ATSC , and the CBC-E M/H program simultaneously.