heating costs-hydro vs propane

[38racing]

Originally Posted by ta guy

don't feel bad you're not alone. i'm always checking for an extensien cord going to my neighbors house I heat with wood,electric hot water,electric cooking stove, and electric heat as a backup that never comes on. My bill is always in the 250 to 300 range for a two month billing cycle.

Are you buying from the utility or a retailer?

[ta guy]

Utility my good man.Straight from the only provider around here Nova Scotia Power.

[GrandmaJ]

Hi Glastain, I read this post while searching "google" and had to comment.
We have been living with Geothermal now for 13 years. This is our second system. We also live in a rural community (in Dufferin county where the wind is renouned)(wind turbines going up everywhere). My hydro bill is $325.00 per month and, right now, they owe me!
I truly believe your problem here is that you are setting your furnace back at night. Once a geothermal system gets 2 degrees away from its temperature they will kick into emergency heat to get you back up (or down in the case of air conditioning) to regulate the heat. Therefore, when you set your thermostat so low at night, you are making your system work harder and probably kicking it into electric heat to get it back up. This can be solved in one of two ways, either program to bring the heat up slowly or just leave it alone.
These system are VERY efficient. There really is no need to set the temperature back at night. In fact, it is my understanding this is not recommended. Try it for a while. We pay less for heating/cooling costs than my neighbours in town, my next door neighbour with a much smaller house, etc. The $325 per month covers four adults living in a 2000 square foot house (plus walkout basement of the same). Three of us work from home and we all like hot showers. LOL
Hope this helps.

[38racing]

I assume that $325 is during the heating season or all year round?

[txv]

$325 per month is low if electric water heating and other loads is taken into acount.

Heating portion could be half of total bill.

[sugerray50]

It's been a year since you posted your original message - so you're probably not looking for input anymore. However for anyone else researching this topic - these are my thoughts.

First - how old is the system? I'm more or less referring to the heat pump because they do have a shelf life.

However, I, like other posters will agree - that it's probably the fact that your turn your thermostat down to 62 at night. Yes, we've been told all of our lives to turn the stat down at night - to save on costs. However, with geothermal - you aren't supposed to. I've been hearing the same thing from our geo guy (our new one!). Since he is so knowledgeable about geo - I tend to believe him.

2nd - have a qualified geo tech come out and check your system. Our original system was installed 4 years ago - and in that 4 years, we've paid more in heating than we did in our previous home (20 min away) - that was heated by baseboard electric heat and was 1,000 sq ft bigger. When I say we've paid more - I mean our bills have doubled. Why? Because our entire geo system was installed wrong by the original company (not the new company, tho!).

No, I'm not just talking out of my head here - we actually had an independent expert come in and write a report about our previous, malfunctioning, geo system. Why? Because we're taking the original installing company to court - our court date is February 2012. We've been going through this process for 2 years now to get to court.

From what I've learned about systems in the last 4 years (I should become geo professional - but I'm not) - if your system isn't working correctly - and there's nothing wrong with the loop, and the heat pump is fine (ie; no issues with compressors, etc) - it could be something as simple as a refrigerant leak that is causing the unit to not extract the heat correctly. I say that's an easy fix - because it's much easier than the fix we had to do (the loops were installed wrong, the ducting wasn't done right, and the heat pump was defective from day 1 )s We had to replace everything - because everything (according to more than 1 geo professional that came out AND the expert who wrote the report) was done wrong.

The last thing I would recommend - is to shut off the electric back up heat (put your breaker in the off position). If you system is running fine (ok - if you're in Ontario - probably not a good idea to do this in the coldest months as you may need the back up heat just to help out during the coldest periods) - but turn off the electric back up heat and see if your unit a) locks out... if it does (and it's not devil's cold outside) - then you may have an issue with your heat pump (speaking from experience - ours locked out more than 280 times in 3 years...). If it doesn't lock out (if it locks out - you will know it because the fans will continue to blow air from the heat pump into your house, that isn't heated - and the temperature will drop). If you shut off your electric back up heating coil - you will see a drastic drop in your hydro bill. Running the electric back up heat is like running baseboard electric heat. That's what it sounds like is happening from the amount of your bill.

So - point form:

1.) have heat pump inspected by a geo professional (ask around for geo professionals in your area

2.) If you can't find a geo person who really knows their systems - you may want to check out www.geo-exchange.ca see if you can find someone certified in geo systems.

3.) Turn off your electric heating coil back up (it's a separate breaker on your electrical panel from the heat pump).

[txv]

That's very good advice - I hope he sees this thread again.

Even when furnaces are out of whack, they still heat fine (gas pressure set wrong, blower speed set wrong, crappy ductwork) - probably in part because they're always oversized.

Heatpumps (and a/c units) on the other hand are not forgiving at all. Producing heat is so much more straight forward than moving it.

[BJM-Maxx]

Sugarray50, what was actually installed incorrectly with your system? I am contemplating building a vacation home and on top of building a very well insulated shell, I want an energy efficient HVAC system. I have been eyeing ground loop heat pumps. It seems like it would be hard to install wrong. I saw a Mike Holmes show where the loop pipes were too close to the surface.

[txv]

If you have gas available, use it.

The price of electricity keeps on increasing and gas is the fuel of choice for new plants anyway; it's probably cheaper to burn the fuel directly.

Otherwise, google "zuba heatpump" for a lower cost option.

[BJM-Maxx]

Natural gas is not available so I would be looking at propane in that case which is not nearly as cheap.

[txv]

Yah, in that case ground source is the best choice.

The zuba is also worth looking into; it's an air source unit which was specifically designed to heat in cold climate. Regular units are only good down to 25-40F - below that supplemental heat is needed.

The way the house is designed will have a greater impact on utility costs than the hvac system; high ceilings, wide open staircases, no door to the basement, large west facing windows, and bonus rooms over unheated areas make heating and cooling efficiently difficult.

Closed cell Spay foam is the best type of insulation to use along the basement sill plate, around windows, and under rooms over unheated areas.

[BJM-Maxx]

Points taken about the construction methods and layout impacts. I do plan to have very high total insulation and most likely spray foam will be used in various places.

I will look into the Zuba. Is there such a thing as a "dual fuel" propane/heat pump or oil/heat pump type of furnace that will work with a ground loop heat pump and not cost the same as just buying two complete furnace systems out there?

One operating constraint is that the place will be set quite low in temperature during the week and only cranked up for weekends. I plan to use a remote capable thermostat, but I assumed I would want a propane or oil capability for warming transitions with the heat pump only for maintenance heat.

[txv]

The only way (that I know of) to do duel fuel with a ground source heatpump is to install a boiler and hydronic coil downstream of the unit. (boiler provides hot water for the coil)

A good condensing boiler could set you back $5k.

The capacity to increase the temp just isn't there without heat strips (which offsets the saving of using a gshp), so it might be wise to focus on making house as efficient as possible, rather than installing a very expensive heating system.

[Anna C]

New to this forum but deep into the geo-thermal vs. propane debate. Husband and I moved into rural home last summer. Old home but exceedingly well renovated. Performed very well in recent energy audit however......we have an electric furnace and its expensive. Thought geo-thermal would be best option but after reading posts wondering about looking at other options. Propane hasn't been very appealing from an aesthetic standpoint but initial costs much less. And the comments posted are a bit disconcerting. Concerns pertain to:
1. Will we really save that much with geo-thermal to make initial costs justifiable (we currently only spend weekends here but will live here permanently in 4-5 years). Some of the discussions about expensive geo-thermal costs are scary.
2. Have heard about some shoddy work being done by geo-thermal installers. I have used the Geo-exchange website to source local installers so hopefully this site is as reputable as implied.
3. Propane is much less money up front and would allow fireplaces and stoves down the road but not sure about cost comparisons.
Anyway, great forum and very informative!!

[classicsat]

Where exactly are you?

Here, in the Kincardine area, we are in a little pocket without piped natural gas, mostly due to political reasons, a large part of that being the nearby nuclear plant. That political block might be changing, and we might have it in a few years. I say that, becasue I would get propane heat which could be converted to NG when it comes. In the meantime, the visual inconvenience of a tank in the yard may be worth the dollar savings.

Most of the newer homes built in the 1970s and later were built with electric heat. Oil is second, wood and propane after that. Natural Gas