Rogers SA8000HD Official Thread.

[JohnnyG]

I don't believe that reading one file at approx. 20Mb/s and writing another at 20Mb/s is as easy as you seem to believe. All that data has to be moved around and processed by the entire system, so the hard drive itself is but one component.

Yes, the 8000HD is a little rough around the edges, but I don't have the bitterness towards it that you folks seem to. Aside from one corrupt recording that caused a reboot everytime I tried to play it, I've been free of major problems. (knock on wood!)

[57]

One thing that I do to minimize "glitches" with the unit is to wait for the unit to respond, or complete a task before pressing another button.

For example, If I ask the unit to begin playing a programme, but realize that I want to change the "format" from 480P to 1080i, I wait until the programme has started playing. If I press the "settings-scrollup-format" buttons while the unit is still searching, I sometimes get a "lockup" (unit unresponsive to remote).

Since it doesn't take any longer to "wait", I avoid the "lockups".

If possible, I schedule recordings for "early morning", or during the day, when I'm not watching something (recorded) on the unit, so that it doesn't have to "multitask".

Same on my computer, I try to minimize multitasking. Yes, computers are supposed to multitask, however, the number of "issues" or "crashes" that arise from "doing too much" increase.

It's also been shown that personal productivity actually decreases with multitasking. It's better to do one thing well, then go on to the other...

[nathan]

Originally Posted by JohnnyG

I don't believe that reading one file at approx. 20Mb/s and writing another at 20Mb/s is as easy as you seem to believe.

It's not easy, by any stretch of the imagination, but it certainly isn't stressing the drive out at all. Let's say you're recording 2HD shows, and watching a 3rd, at the top bitrate, so that's about 60Mb/s...or 7.5MB/s...that's far, FAR below the drive's speed rating...(I would assume the drive is ATA66 or higher)... even given the fact that the 66MB/s is a burst rating, and after shuffling data around, and the natural fragmentation that would occur on the PVR, it shouldn't ever be an issue for the box to 'keep up' with the data.

Originally Posted by JohnnyG

Yes, the 8000HD is a little rough around the edges, but I don't have the bitterness towards it that you folks seem to.

I too like my PVR, of course there are things I'd like fixed, or changed, but in general, it performs it's duty, and does it well.

[JohnnyG]

I'll tell you what. Start playing back an HD clip on your PC, then start copying two huge files in the background. Let's see if your PC does better than the 8000HD!

[slyboy]

Originally Posted by JohnnyG

I'll tell you what. Start playing back an HD clip on your PC, then start copying two huge files in the background. Let's see if your PC does better than the 8000HD!

True that the PC won't do any better, but the PC isn't running a proprietary operating system that is supposedly designed to do this specific task. The SARA software is by spec supposed to be able to record two HD programs while playing a third pre-recorded one back. For the most part this box operates as it claims it should, but there are some clear issues with it from time to time. It's not like this box is feature-intensive; it should be able to regularly record shows while playing back something else without the fear of a software crash.

[nathan]

Originally Posted by JohnnyG

I'll tell you what. Start playing back an HD clip on your PC, then start copying two huge files in the background. Let's see if your PC does better than the 8000HD!

You're comparing apples to oranges though. Different processor, different architecture, different OS. The 8000/8000HD in general only has to worry about 2 things, recording, and playback (anything else is a minor drain). It doesn't have to worry about memory management, background services, extra applications, extra drains on it's IDE bus etc, etc etc.

That being said, with a custom OS, a whole lot more knowledge in programming, a bunch of cash, and a bit of extra EEPROM, I'm quite sure I could make a PC that does FAR more than the 8000/HD does with (basically) standard PC components.

[mike infinity]

Originally Posted by JohnnyG

I'll tell you what. Start playing back an HD clip on your PC, then start copying two huge files in the background. Let's see if your PC does better than the 8000HD!

I agree with Nathan.

If all you want to do is dump pre-compressed files to the HD at less than 10MB/s, then no sweat at all. Playback is another matter, but for obvious reasons.

Playback requires MPEG decompression, which the PC architecture is not optimized to reproduce (especially since it does everything else). Sure, a pentium II, III, IV could do it...but it is not dedicated for this kind of work. Now, if you had a dedicated AV subsystem (say on a card) solely for decompressing and output of mpeg 2 signals, then all of this would be childsplay on some of the cheapest PC's on the market today.

A machine like the 8000HD clearly has dedicated mpeg decoder hardware...its the same hardware that allows you to watch live TV without dropping frames or audio.

The rest is run-of-the-mill (and cheap) file IO...handled by an independant bus system....capable of much better than 10MB/s. There really is no good reason why the HD bus can't match the bitrate of a single HD playback, even if it is recording two other shows at the same time.

Just as a side note: I have tried Hi-Def recording on my new unit (just recieved today). I recorded a PBS broadcast with tons of fly-overs and pans...didn't notice a single frame drop (some of it was fairly quick).

I will post my experiences with the unit here once I get more experience with it.

[JohnnyG]

It doesn't have to worry about memory management, background services, extra applications, extra drains on it's IDE bus etc, etc etc.

I beg to differ!

That being said, with a custom OS, a whole lot more knowledge in programming, a bunch of cash, and a bit of extra EEPROM, I'm quite sure I could make a PC that does FAR more than the 8000/HD does with (basically) standard PC components.

So why doesn't somebody do just that then? Reardon Steel essentially went backrupt trying this, and they had some pretty deep pockets. After many years, and lots more money, part of their design will see the light of day, but that's about it.

[nathan]

Originally Posted by JohnnyG

I beg to differ!

Well, you're welcome to beg to differ, but there's a reason why the 8000HD has 40Mb of memory, runs on a couple 166Mhz processor, and your PC has (probably) 512, and runs (probably) over 10 times that fast. Bring up task manager (or run ps if you're linux) and look at all the crap that you're running, the 8000HD doesn't have to deal with 1/100th of the stuff that my, your, or anyone's PC does.

Originally Posted by JohnnyG

So why doesn't somebody do just that then? Reardon Steel essentially went backrupt trying this, and they had some pretty deep pockets. After many years, and lots more money, part of their design will see the light of day, but that's about it.

Building a PC with the exact same capabilities as the 8000HD would be cost-prohibitive, but not at all impossible. Like I said, I could do it, but I mentioned I'd nead a bucketload of cash (a HUGE bucketload!). And it would bankrupt me, because who wants to buy a $2000 computer that can't do anything except record, and playback HD material? (which is what I was saying is quite possible)

[JohnnyG]

OK, you guys win! How can I argue against all that great theory!

[Joxer]

I still think its trying to compress something - if it was a problem with playback by taxing the system then it shouldn't always happen at exactly the same place, regardless of whether there are other programs being recorded, etc. Seems like when there's too much work to compress between frames it simply gives up and moves to the next frame, probably just repeating the last. Again, I never see these problems live, but they are readily reproducible on playback regardless of what the unit is doing. I still think the problems with the Sopranos are different, maybe some sort of problem in how CTV gets the material and broadcasts it. I'll have to try watching it live sometime to be sure.

[mike infinity]

Originally Posted by jethrogoss

I still think its trying to compress something - if it was a problem with playback by taxing the system then it shouldn't always happen at exactly the same place, regardless of whether there are other programs being recorded, etc.

If it always drops the exact same frame(s) then its possible a glitch occured while recording, not necessarily during playback. The way to test this would be to look for a repeat broadcast, record it again and see if you get a dropped frame at the exact same spot.

Still, I can't think of any good reason why the 8000HD would do that, since there is (as i said), plenty of bandwidth and buffer to go around.

Seems like when there's too much work to compress between frames it simply gives up and moves to the next frame, probably just repeating the last.

MPEG works on pixel-level changes from frame to frame (I believe). During a pan, every single pixel is changing simultaneously...this means that we have more data/second to move and process on those busy frames than we would otherwise have on typical frames.

Now, we know that the SA8000HD decoder can handle the 'busy frames' without drops via a live feed. This means that if HD playback drops frames, the problem is coming from the system that passes the data to the decoder. (edit: IOW, our data transfer is not able to feed the bits into the decoder fast enough on busy frames compared to live feed coax).

But it would be to every hardware engineer's amazement if SA couldn't build a system that could pass data to the decoder from the HD at ~10MB/second in this day and age.

I have only watched a single Hi-def recorded program (a PBS program about the everglades that seems to repeat quite often). I have not yet noticed any dropped frames in the fly-bys and pans. I'll keep looking.

[57]

Sent the following today to Rogers...

Hello again:

It has been 5 months since the SA8000HD was released by Rogers. Many people in the US now have new firmware that has addressed the “bugs and issues” I outlined below in an earlier e-mail (June 22)

We have been patiently waiting for the firmware to address these issues in the Rogers SA8000HD. I see that you have recently started supplying the SA8300HD that has addressed some of these issues.

Would you please advise when the owners/renters of the SA8000HD can expect the firmware to address these issues.

Thanks, 57

E-mail of June 22

57 wrote:
The following comments relate to the SA8000HD recently released by
Rogers. I belong to a High Definition forum and we have assembled these
comments, hoping they would be useful for you. The comments fall into
two groupings:

1. "Bugs" - things that don't work right.

2. "Suggestions" - things that would make the unit better.

We hope that these comments will allow you to improve this product.
It's safe to say that everyone who has one of these SA8000HDs is happy
with it and we are pleased that you have provided a rental option, in
addition to the purchase option. As you know, it's very easy to improve
upon the product, via firmware updates, and we look forward to firmware
updates that address our "Bugs & Suggestions".

If you have any comments or timing regarding when the firmware will be
released that will address some of the major issues, that would be
appreciated - especially DVI and firewire.

Here is our list:

Bugs:
-----

1. A "stuttering" or "jittering" when watching programmes with panning
from side to side, or up/down - sports like basketball, hockey, auto
racing, even nature programmes with fast panning have this problem.
Looks like the "frame rate" is only a few frames per second, instead of
30.

2. Issues with setting up manual recordings . The recordings do not
always "take" properly - sometimes you get two recordings or even
"weird" additional recording times. Sometimes, the manual recording
settings are phantomly deleted, after only one recording even if it's
supposed to be a "weekly" recording, etc.

3. When a recorded HD programme comes to a fully "black" or fully
"white" scene, or credits at the end of a movie, there are audio/video
breakups/stuttering. This happens on almost all recorded programmes
with "black" or "white" screens. Examples include "Six Feet Under"
which has a number of "fade to white" scenes in each episode and has
credits at the end that cause these "breakups".

4. If you set a recording from the IPG, edit it to add a few minutes,
it'll record this way, properly, the first time - for example set Jay
Leno to record from 11:33PM-12:38AM instead of 11:35-12:35, however,
after it's recorded this way once, all subsequent recordings go back to
the "unedited" 11:35-12:35.

5. Despite the fact that I've stated my default as "save until erased",
some recordings were erased after 14 days. Other people have mentioned
that some of their recordings were also erased when they shouldn't have
been.

Suggestions:
--------------

1. We look forward to a time when the "VCR archiving" function works.

2. We look forward to a "fuel gauge" that tell us how much space is left
on the hard drive for recording.

3. We look forward to having "passthrough" and/or "upconvert1/2"
available on this STB, similar to the way it is on the SA3250HD (and the new SA8300HD). It's a
bit of a pain having to manually change between formats, especially
after having used the SA3250HD.

4. We look forward to a time when the firewire ports are activated.

5. We look forward to a time when the DVI port is activated.

6. We look forward to "easily" being able to add a few minutes to
regular recordings, at the front and at the back, for minor programme
overruns. It is currently possible to edit recordings to do this, but
that's cumbersome and also doesn't "hold" as mentioned in the "bugs",
above.

7. On the remote control the "live" button is right above to the FF
button. This makes it far too easy to hit the "live" button instead of
FF, which means you have to rewind to get back to where you were - very
annoying when "pausing live TV". You should mention this "design flaw"
to SA.

8. If you use the "all episodes" recording option, it'll record every
episode of that programme, even if it's a repeat. This means that some
shows, which are repeated often each week, get recorded several times a
week, instead of once. There should be an option for "every NEW
episode", comparing existing recordings to "new" IPG information.

9. Although you can stop watching a recording and go back to the same
position later to "resume from current location". You cannot do this if
you go to a "different" recording in the meantime. You can only "resume"
the last programme you watched. (On a VCR, I would have simply
reinserted the tape and it would resume where I left off - I can't see
why the firmware can't include a "tag" on each recording, rather than
only the "last" recording watched?)

10. If you record a program and then start watching it part of the way
through (by rewinding to the beginning), when the program finishes
recording you are automatically returned to "live" TV. This is very
annoying. I'm engrossed in a show when, out of nowhere, I'm now watching
something completely different. Going back into the show to find where
it left off, means you have to FF to that spot – very time-consuming if it’s a long programme.

11. Other nice features would be things like "seasons pass", searching
for actors or themes, etc.

12. A display of the input format (i.e. 1080i, 720P, 480i/p)

13. If you hit the "jump back 10 seconds" button directly from FF, the next time you press FF, you will get the "next speed" rather than the first FF speed (4X). As though the STB "remembers" the previous FF speed. Any intervening actions will likely "reset" the FF speed.

14. The HDD currently leaves "some space" when it stops recording scheduled programmes. Some people would like the option to have the HDD fill completely, even if it means you don't have a "buffer" when you turn on the unit - it gives you this "warning". (I don't see this as a big issue actually)

Thank you very much for listening. Any feedback would be appreciated.

If you wish to see the "thread" where we have discussed the unit in more
detail, please go to the following link. The first post contains a summary of our many discussions of this unit.

http://digitalhomecanada.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=13405

[JohnnyG]

Now don't you dare be asking for an 8300HD upgrade!

[mike infinity]

Originally Posted by JohnnyG

Now don't you dare be asking for an 8300HD upgrade!

I just got my 8000HD on tuesday. I have 30 days to exchange or return it. If rogers is replacing the 8000HD with the 8300HD, then I will certainly exchange, unless they make the cost prohibitively more expensive (which is unlikely).

I would exchange for the simple reason that SA are likely to have fixed several of the little niggles and glitches that are (apparently) present on the 8000HD.

For existing 8000HD owners, I sincerely hope that SA addresses whatever firmware bugs that come up...and that they activate the ports that should be active on that unit.

I also sincerely hope that the new unit does not come along with alpha or beta firmware...bringing forth another swath of frustrating experiences for the end-users (the people who are giving everyone at rogers and SA their paychecks).