DAB Radio in Canada

[CamDAB]

Originally Posted by bentoronto

Can you explain just a bit why the common-antenna installations are problematic?

Each transmitter must "see" the antenna in such a way that it thinks there is only it connected, and not shared. The large and precision tuned equipment that lies between the transmitter is very precisely tuned. This tuning is dependent on the stations power, on-air frequency and how many other stations are attached to the same antenna. As you probably know, FM occupies a specific amount of "space" per channel on the FM dial. This equipment is designed for that. The "HD" part of the signal is a completely different kind of signal that needs special attention, and behaves differently to this equipment. Needless to say, it takes special knowledge and expertise to do this properly and not create more problems then already may exist.

Originally Posted by bentoronto

Can you be more concrete about the "automation" issues?

From what I understand, there is only one chip or series of chips for the HD Radio system for receivers, and designers don't have the freedom like designing FM receivers to modify how it behaves. My little shirt-pocket Insignia radio behaves like your Sony... If there's an HD signal, it will automatically transfer to HD1, no questions asked. I find this really annoying, and to me limits the usefulness of the system. If the user could directly specify regular or HD reception, and in the case of HD, the HD channel #, it would allow one program for say regular FM, and another for HD1, HD2 etc. The fact that it ALWAYS does a fall-over to HD1 means that HD1 must always be the same as regular FM. Apparently there is a mode in the transmission of HD Radio whereby there can be no regular FM signal, just all digital HD1, HD2 etc. The Insignia does support this as I found out by accident last summer as WTSS had some kind of issue with their FM transmitter and took it off-air, while their HD signals stayed on-air. The radio handled this OK but tuning in created a blast of noise before the HD settled in. BTW, using just the digital signals is MUCH more efficient. HINT to broadcasters. :-)

Hope this helps.

Cameron

[bentoronto]

Thanks much. Just enough detail for me to imagine the filters, etc. needed to keep the transmitter signals from bumping into one another.

About marginal HD reception flipping back and forth into FM-stereo, there's a hack where you can cut a certain trace in the Sony to lock-out the HD (or, a switch to bring it back). So, that one shortcoming ought to be fixable by Sony by adding a mechanical or remote-controlled switch.

The hack take too much precision cutting and soldering for me... so far. But if my rare reception of PBS HD becomes more frequent, I'll need it more and more because major pain when tuner switches between HD and FM-stereo (there's a half-second time difference which is a PIA).

[CamDAB]

From here in east Hamilton, I had HD on:

88.7 Buffalo HD1,2,3
93.7 Buffalo HD1
96.1 Buffalo HD1
97.9 Rochester (tropo) HD1
98.5 Niagara Falls NY HD1,2
98.9 Rochester (tropo) HD1
100.5 Rochester (tropo) HD1
102.5 Buffalo HD1,2
106.5 Buffalo (tropo helps) HD1

Best sounding, 106.5
Worst sounding, 102.5 HD1 (HD2 is fine)

I did some MOSFET RF soldering on an amateur radio repeater receiver many years ago (a Hamtronics 220MHz front end), but haven't the fine iron, worksite or vision to do the integrated circuit stuff now. Oh... And yes, it did work upon first powerup. :-)

FYI

Cameron

[bentoronto]

Lucky to get all those stations. Perhaps because CN Tower is far angular away from Buffalo for you... but within a few degrees for me

No PBS 94.5-1? PBS-AM-radio feed on 94.5-2?

[CamDAB]

CN Tower is rock solid from here....

I can only get 1 (ONE!) local station without any significant multipath interference, and that's also the reason I don't get 94.5... It's CIWV, Wave 94.7... Only a couple of Km from me (I'm looking at it now) from our 10th floor window... It's running 40Kw.... Very few receivers survive here. Our Panasonic HT receiver barely survives, the Insignia HD Radio barely survives, the FM radio part of the DAB radio overloads... Everything else on FM falls apart due to many overload effects. It would be interesting to try a McIntosh MR-80 and or a Dynalab WorldPort FM unit. Downtown Toronto is also another torture test for FM radios.

Every other FM station here in Hamilton is facing other sides of the apartment building (not my side) and they ALL suffer severe multipath. Ain't no fix, only McMaster CFMU is on digital cable.... Yet, the CN Tower is a clean shot (can be seen on clear days).

Cameron

[CamDAB]

http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2011/2011-36.htm

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
Windsor, Ottawa and Toronto, Ontario and Vancouver, British Columbia
APPROVED - Request for the revocation of the broadcasting licences for the transitional digital radio undertakings CBE-DR-1 and CBE-DR-2 Windsor; CBO-DR-1, CBOQ-DR-1, CBOF-DR-1 and CBOX-DR-1 Ottawa; CBLA-DR-1, CBL-DR-1, CBU-DR-1, CBU-DR-2, CBUF-DR-1 and CBUX-DR-1 Vancouver and CJBC-DR-1 and CJBC-DR-2 Toronto

It sounded fine while it lasted. Back to multipath riddled FM for Radio 2.... :-(

Cameron

[bentoronto]

I take for granted the CRTC will grant CBC's request?

Sorry I was hasty in assuming great reception opportunities everywhere in Hamilton. I suppose other sides of your building have better opportunities.

With audio and baseband digital, lots of ways of sending signals from one side of building to another (or down from the roof) without running wires.

Any way to get access to Rogers' cables in your home and find their starting location?

[CamDAB]

Ben,

Great ideas but with this being such a huge building, management wouldn't even think of it.

We're served by Cogeco, and to get the Toronto FM's, at least some of them, you need a digital set top box (TV). Only 1 station from Hamilton is available via the STB and that's CFMU, McMaster University.

Now, for digital TV, I have a Channel Master 4bay CM4221D and it works well. Most FM antennas of decent gain would create a huge indoor footprint that gets unwieldy and prone to accidents...

Multipath is one of the issues, but overload from CIWV 94.7 is more a problem for most receivers. My Grundig portable works best in this regard.

Cameron

[bentoronto]

Aside from spouse approval factor, what about those large rhombic wire antennas across the ceiling of a few rooms?

Mostly kidding......

[CamDAB]

Fantastic idea!! :-)

Yes, we both have our amateur radio licenses, but uh.. there comes a time when things must be kept in proportion..

And then there's this tiny tiny problem with management... Somehow I don't think they're going to like holes being drilled through supporting structural walls...... :-)

Cameron

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by CamDAB

And then there's this tiny tiny problem with management... Somehow I don't think they're going to like holes being drilled through supporting structural walls...... :-)

What if you used flat speaker wire? It is self adhesive and paintable so no one would ever see it. Just cut it down the middle to make a single wire. Hmm. I wonder if you could make a Yagi with it.

[CamDAB]

Hey Roger, what is that stuff?! Monster cable run through a paper mill??! ;-)

I wonder if that stuff has applications over in the antenna design area of the OTA TV forum? Oh dear... New mods to CM antennas.....

The trick is getting the impedance correct, either 75 or 300 ohm. You got me thinking...

Cameron

[bentoronto]

In another thread, I was joking about methods of concealing a 4228 even though banned on an apartment balcony.

Great idea, Roger1818.

[dael]

Originally Posted by CamDAB

Hey Roger, what is that stuff?! Monster cable run through a paper mill??! ;-)

I wonder if that stuff has applications over in the antenna design area of the OTA TV forum? Oh dear... New mods to CM antennas.....

The trick is getting the impedance correct, either 75 or 300 ohm. You got me thinking...

Cameron

Hi Cam, Since you are talking antennas. Do you have any idea how to put up an antenna for DAB. Now that CBC is gone I am able to get Virgen, Jazz, EZ Rock and a couple of others much closer to home. They are now comming in on most of the L/A Expressway. Wilson St in Ancaster and now if I am very carefull right in front of my house in Dundas. I think that with an antenna and maybe some type of booster I may be able to get a permanent hookup in the home. For some strange reason these stations are much stronger. Is it the weather? Thanks.

[CamDAB]

I think that:

1) CBC going off-air on DAB doesn't have any bearing on your current reception.
Cold weather actually helps DAB L-Band. There's no materially noticeable "tropo" kind of propagation of signals that happens there. If anything, over my years of listening to L-Band DAB since 2003, summer humidity combined with strong wind tends to put a real dent in 50Km distance reception. Also, in winter, signal loss is greatly reduced do to the lack of leaves on the trees. L-Band is definitely affected by that also.

2) With CBC getting approval for ditching their DAB broadcasts, it's only a matter of time before the private broadcasters follow suit. Thus, my general consensus is, don't waste your time and effort putting up antennas and finding L-Band amplifiers. Enjoy what's left in your travels. If they want to keep both of us (the two DAB listeners in Canada) happy, why don't they bring the gear to Hamilton and stuff all of Hamilton's stations on it, then at least I can then say I can listen to radio from Hamilton... :-) As it stands now, CIWV 94.7 FM is my only station on FM that's listenable without multipath. As has been mentioned in other threads here, AM is getting to the point of a voice grade Bell "POTS" line... And sometimes that's stretching it. :-)

3) Satellite radio has content, but insufficient repeaters to truly cover the multitudes not facing the "birds". Canada just has lost the will to excel with technology.

And... With the mindset of users paying for every little thing along the lines of entertainment, it only widens the gap between those with and those without funds. Not a healthy framework to work within from my perspective.

Cameron