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Old 2009-09-12, 01:22 AM   #16
bcgirl
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Yes Tablo that is the document its from - from CTV to CRTC (in reference to licensing negotians this year, I think?). Have I got it wrong or is it that these stations will go off air?

I see the list of permanent allotments, but does that mean all those stations are commited to refitting and continuing ota? I'd be very happy if someone could confirm if this is so, but everything I dig up tends to indicate the prevailing view is that it's too expensive to rebuild/retrofit, ota in general is too expensive to maintain, everybody uses cable/satellite anyways, money would be better spent on increasing canadian content than broadcasting ota. The compromise I've heard suggested is that digital ota conversion will take place in a few select major cities, and the rest of the country may be allowed to run analogue till the infrastructure drops, but then it's game over and to cable we all go.

Please tell me I'm wrong? Is such an outcome potentially possible? At first review of info available it seems to be heading this way already...
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Old 2009-09-12, 12:22 PM   #17
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Smile Hold your horses...

Let's treat that list as being very interesting for the possible state of CTV's OTA stations but unfortunately not being 100% verifiable as fact, then. That's not directed personally at bcgirl in any way, whom I thank for posting it. It is based on what some of you who have been involved in CRTC hearings in the past already know: there is almost always a big gap between the desires of the Canadian broadcasters and the eventual outcomes.

So, it is one thing for CTV to submit it to the CRTC as part of hearings, but hopefully we can get some further evidence from CTV in the form of an announcement or other document.
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Old 2009-09-12, 03:49 PM   #18
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The "list" may have been a bargaining piece generated by CTV. Now that the local television fund is in place, things may have changed...
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Old 2009-09-12, 06:05 PM   #19
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Those "stations" are mostly repeaters for actual stations in other cities. They generate little revenue since local advertising solicitation is not allowed. They also have no local programming so they cannot benefit from the LPF.

These repeaters were put in place originally to allow simsubs on area cable systems. CTV now has approval to request simsubs for areas where no stations exist. Therefore the repeaters are no longer necessary and CTV is shutting them down rather than spend any money for digital conversion.

BTW, the CRTC automatically renewed licenses for stations when CTV failed to apply for renewals, basically calling CTV's bluff. They are still on the air but digital conversion is still questionable. What's next? Maybe a digital conversion fund mandated by the CRTC? Whatever happened to free enterprise and entrepreneurship in Canada?
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Old 2009-09-12, 06:21 PM   #20
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the US government subsidized the digital transition in the united states....
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Old 2009-09-12, 06:44 PM   #21
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@scarybob: If a station meets the criteria for local station improvement funds, they (and their repeaters) will receive funding.

@ringtailedfox: Indeed, the US government contributed quite a bit to the conversion, and so should the Canadian government. We can't forget that the federal government will earn unbelieveable sums of money auctioning off the 700MHz spectrum, which will be vacated after the conversion. The least the government could do would be to help stations and consumers with the transition.
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Old 2009-09-12, 07:34 PM   #22
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Quote:
the US government subsidized the digital transition in the united states....
Did they subsidize the transmitters? Or just the converters?
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Old 2009-09-12, 08:55 PM   #23
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I may be less in the know but did not the current owner take a long bath on speciality channels that no one wanted to pay for , so they are taking it out on the loyal customers of local tv by canning the ctv ota stuff,

I mean these stations have been around longer than most civil servants and local programming is their specialty. Unfortunately the new boys from Montreal who own these stations and all the other stuff are soooooooooooooo money fixated that they chose to blame anything or anyone for their bad decisions sigh

the only thing constant is change ---- notwithstanding having the right dna?
I don't know

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Old 2009-09-12, 08:58 PM   #24
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Quote:
Use the Industry Canada listings for Canadian stations since the U.S. ones that are based on the FCC have incorrect info:

http://www.user.dccnet.com/jonleblan...a_TV_Stations/
Actually w9wi's list is accurate, because it IS based on the Industry Canada database.

It's only Andy at TVFool who hasn't had the time to integrate the real Canadian Database onto his web page.

In fact, W9WI's Candian listing are very handy, since they're easier to read than the raw database files (and I don't have to download them every week.)
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Old 2009-09-12, 08:59 PM   #25
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Quote:
Did they subsidize the transmitters? Or just the converters?
Both, to a certain extent. I know PBS stations could apply for and did receive grants to help with the digital transition. I don't know about commercial stations.
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Old 2009-09-12, 09:02 PM   #26
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These repeaters were put in place originally to allow simsubs on area cable systems.
That's a stretch. A lot of those stations predate the 1968 establishment of the CRTC, let alone the institution of simsub regulations in the early 70's.

Before simsub came along, Canadian stations used to buy pre-release rights to many American shows, so they were actually broadcast on Canadian TV (both CBC and CTV) before the American showing. Sometimes it was 30 or 60 minutes before, and sometimes it was days before.
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Old 2009-09-13, 11:37 AM   #27
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CKNX should not be on that list, I think. While CKNX-TV ceased to exist at the end of August, the transmitter is sill operating, as a CFPL re-transmitter.
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Old 2009-09-13, 02:07 PM   #28
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AFAIK, none of the CTV stations that CTV threatened to shut down have actually shutdown. Please jump in, if any one knows to the contrary.

Canwest, on the other hand, has shut down the Edmonton and Calgary relays of the Red Deer station.
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Old 2009-09-13, 06:47 PM   #29
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Stampeder you are right, we don't know for sure what that list will mean and I have to be careful about just throwing stuff like that out there.

That said, there is a real problem, already started, that could eventually kill most ota for smaller communities. I don't have near enough facts straight at this point, but it seems that it's the repeater stations that are most at risk. People I talk to at crtc and ctv seem to treat the question of services outside the most major urban areas as a non issue. Apparently the idea that all Canadians should have free access to basic national and local television services is a joke?

Sorry, this issue has gotten me quite upset which tends to start a rant...

And maybe this topic would best be placed in a different thread? Not just a CTV problem.

Does anyone have references or know the details of the original and current simsub/priority carriage status agreements? How does it work that a broadcaster like CTV has priority carraige (or maybe it doesn't?) on cable in communities it doesn't serve ota? And is it that they aren't allowed to simsub local ads that they are serving ota? If so, why? Quite confused about all this and would like to learn more...
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Old 2009-09-13, 07:24 PM   #30
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@bcgirl: You are correct that there appears to be a carefree attitude from our government with regards to OTA access. Contrast this to the US, where the government made a concerted effort to ensure public access to OTA persists beyond the conversion. Even to the extent that consumers were given coupons towards the purchase of tuner boxes...

That would never happen here in Canada.

My theory is always follow the money. BDU subscriptions generate millions in tax revenues for the government. BDU's create jobs...which further enhance tax revenue. And by disuading use of OTA spectrum, the government can eventually cash in on huge auction fees. Therefore, it appears to be in their best interest to "encourage" people to subscribe to BDU services.
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