FreeHD Canada (now BluSky) - Satellite TV alternative may be coming.... - Page 3 - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

Walter Dnes · 2009-08-18, 11:06 PM

Let's see... FreeHDTV will be transmitting local channels without subscriber connections/accounts, so there would be no way to figure out how to charge Fee-For-Carriage. Global and CTV will come whining to the CRTC that this will destroy them financially. The proposal is so dead.

apn · 2009-08-19, 06:19 AM

Finally, something in this country that delivers a fraction of the FreeView & FreeSat offering in the UK.

Commercial TV was always supposed to be supported by advertising, so I've never understood why both advertisers AND viewers pay over here (we also get billed for both sides of a cell phone call).

windows7 · 2009-08-19, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Finally, something in this country that delivers a fraction of the FreeView & FreeSat offering in the UK.

Commercial TV was always supposed to be supported by advertising, so I've never understood why both advertisers AND viewers pay over here (we also get billed for both sides of a cell phone call).

I have to say... that whole requiring a "license" for viewing your TV and guys in trucks driving around w/ a RADAR system looking for thieves is quite alarming.

I think this FreeHD is not going to happen because the Canadian OTA stations would be against it now that we have this ridiculous "Local Programming Improvement Fund" that gets them money via BDU taxation. Sure, those who use FreeHD and also sub to paid channels, would be contributing part of their monthly bill to the LPIF, but they know that a good number of Canadians would like to gain a whole wack of Canadian local and distant stations for free and never pay a dime for it... nor contribute to the LPIF.

Getting locals for free via cable isn't possible because you need to subscribe to basic cable -- paying primarily for Canadian basic cable channels -- and if you want distant locals (Canadian ones for free), you need a STB, but the that's not the issue. The "digital access fund" to get the channels makes you pay at least $2 (or something like that) a month.

Also the powerful lobbyists at the Bell TV have influence over the CRTC, so that's another shot against it. Other BDUs will cite some lame "inability to sustain another programming source outside of a single cable and/or one of 2 DTH satellite sources" excuse.

Shear Force · 2009-08-19, 07:43 AM

I wish him all the luck.

However his business model is full of holes. First of all, the total cost/customer will be approx $550 to $600 - including cost of dish, installation, receiver cost + marketing costs/retailer markup. Plus he has the cost of 1 32 transponder satellite~ $400m usd. (He can get 7 HD channels or 28 SD/transponder using DVB-S2 MPEG4).

As a satellite veteran, he wouldn't be so stupid as to use Nagra. So his choices are NDS or DCII encryption. Either way DirecTV or Shaw own the middleware, so he would need to have his own code written. In addition he has to pay for fibre feeds from each city to to Ciel's uplink in Sask.

So how many consumers will fork out $600 for their local channels? And remember he makes $0 unless the customer upgrades to paying services.

I wonder what his real goal is. Remember Voom.

Dr.Dave · 2009-08-19, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windows7

they know that a good number of Canadians would like to gain a whole wack of Canadian local and distant stations for free and never pay a dime for it.

According to the previous links, he would use spot beams like they do in the U.S., so you only get the locals for free - not the distant stations.

On the subject of this getting off the ground, I'm sure Bell and Shaw will fight like crazy - claiming Canada can't support a third satellite provider. The cable companies will object as well, but we already know that the CRTC thinks they make fat profits so they will be irrelevant.

If it looks like this might get approved, Bell will probably revive their free TV concept to prove this service is unnecessary. After the application is rejected, Bell will probably drag their feet on the implementation.

DanTou · 2009-08-19, 11:40 AM

Shear Force, read all the posts... Go back to post 28. $299, not $600. I guess customers who just bought an HDTV may want to fork out $300 to get 15 to 20 HD channels free. A lot of them may want to fork out $300 to get off the $20/month basic cable/satellite subscription. I know people who would pay $300 to get off the $20/month basic cable/satellite even if it weren't HD! I'm writing $20/month but I believe it's actually higher. By the way, by 2011, everybody will have to buy a HD decoder of some kind.

He doesn't have to write his own code. He code use code from satellites in other countries.

VOOM was too early, not enough people had HD TV at home.

Dr.Dave, Bell/Shaw/Vidéotron/Rogers already has started fighting like crazy! Shear Force, who do you work for?

I may be wrong, but this is the typical answers I got used to from people at Vidéotron: They put keywords like NDS, DCII, DVB-S2, MPEG4 and more technical detail to say why it can't be done. Always overlook other possible solutions. No creative thinking. So much pessimism.

If everybody asks for this, it will happen. It's not like Bell/Shaw/Vidéotron/Rogers are doing a good job, are leaders in number of channels or quality, or the least expensive services in the world. Last time I checked, we were near the bottom.

classicsat · 2009-08-19, 12:00 PM

FFC would be on the part of the station, not the provider, or at least they can negotiate a free carriage.

As for security, there are CA providers other than Nagra and NDS, although it might be economically smart to license the DirecTV platform, which his already made receivers, which I beleive are DVB-S2 for their MPEG4 HD, and meet North Americal power and video standards. Software wouldn't need written, just re-branded and slightly tweaked, and a French language module added.

And yes, if it does launch and work, it could make at least satellite providers rethink their subscription model WRT locals.

As for free locals on cable, they could do what they do in India, analog cable is free for connecting, digital cable you need a box and subscription. Mind you, mostly that is because they cannot manage tap connections, not becasue they have an altruistic thought of giving locals away.

As for why pay for commercials. This basically stems from the fact in North America, specialty channels were first delivered to conumers by cable which was pay from the start, and becasue of that, cable basically dictated to consumer satellite systems that game. In Europe, satellite and the specialty channels came first, and they basically dictated to the then emerging cable companies that them being on satellite for free is their business.

As for the British TV license, you get a lot of value for it, considering what you can get free from antenna or satellite. Mind you, there isn't much in HD there, quite yet. Detector trucks are a 3rd resort, if letters and intimidation don't work. I would gladly pay a modest TV license fee, for the right to receive a certain amount of programming for free on what equipment I want.

In the bigger picture, it can be done technically. It is just a matter of economics, a business model to support free DTH, and regulatory approval and industry acceptance.

DSgamby · 2009-08-19, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanTou

By the way, by 2011, everybody will have to buy a HD decoder of some kind.

Wrong. 2011 is for Digital Transition from OTA only.

xred · 2009-08-19, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hugh

Lets face it.

Bell and Shaw have a lot of overhead and legacy costs which means higher prices.

A shrewd lean and mean organization which only offers HD channels, abandons MPEG2 and does NOT offer SD versions should be able to keep costs down to be competitive.

Since they offer some Free Packages, the hardware costs would likely be higher since their is no subsidy (although, they may offer subsidized hardware with the paid package)

As a counterpoint to this I would suggest that they should probably NOT overlook MPEG2 and SD channels delivered using standard DVB.

Given the huge inventory of currently "incapacitated" satellite FTA equipment out in the market, there's an argument that says if you want to hurt Bell & Rogers then you provide the same content as your free HD package over standard DVB / MPEG2 at SD resolutions. You then you upsell these free SD users to your HD equipment at full price if they just want the free package at HD resolutions and/or upsell them with subsidized equipment if they subscribe to a premium content package.

Using the "something for nothing" option at the low end of the tier is a pricing scheme Rogers / Bell most likely can't or won't match and also serves to move lots of new users to the new platform... something most startups struggle with against entrenched competitors.

DanTou · 2009-08-19, 03:03 PM

You think there will still be analog on cable?

OK, I should have said: "everybody will have to buy a digital decoder of some kind if they don't already have one".

james99 · 2009-08-19, 03:07 PM

It's not uncommon for people to mix up Digital with HD.

trask · 2009-08-19, 03:08 PM

It's nice in theory, but they are still going to be bound by our archaic CanCon laws, and the fact most of the country still isn't set up for all HD programming. At least it's more competition which can't hurt.

Reed Solomon · 2009-08-19, 03:31 PM

If I could connect their box to some sort of external PVR I'd be interested. If they go with Motorola I hope the technology has advanced enough that they don't still have big ass grey boxes as starchoice and the like have. I just want basic cable HD anyways, with a few higher tier things. I'd go for it, and heck I have some old dishes I could reuse anyways.

xred · 2009-08-19, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reed Solomon

If I could connect their box to some sort of external PVR I'd be interested. If they go with Motorola I hope the technology has advanced enough that they don't still have big ass grey boxes as starchoice and the like have. I just want basic cable HD anyways, with a few higher tier things. I'd go for it, and heck I have some old dishes I could reuse anyways.

It would be great if they used standard KU Band equipment over standard DVB with no encryption for at least the free packages, but somehow I don't think it's going to work that way. It's sounding more and more like you will need to buy in to their closed eco-system of proprietary hardware in order to get your "free" content.

If on the other hand they did stick with standard equipment it would mean that users could choose or build their own solutions from a huge pool of existing devices. You could use a Media Center PC or Free to Air Satellite receiver with your Tivo. As a SageTV user I think this would be fantastic, but realistically I don't think it's likely they would do that.

classicsat · 2009-08-19, 03:48 PM

My belief is Cancon will be easy, as far as channels go, which is all a BDU has to worry about. If they choos not to carry US locals, there will be no problem.

As for an extenral PVR/DVR, there would be no problem with that; all providers support that, except there is no standalone HD-DVR you use with a provider box anyhow, just SD.

2009-08-18, 11:06 PM	#31
Walter Dnes Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Vaughan, Ontario (near Dufferin and Steeles) Posts: 1,894	OTA broadcasters will try to kill this Let's see... FreeHDTV will be transmitting local channels without subscriber connections/accounts, so there would be no way to figure out how to charge Fee-For-Carriage. Global and CTV will come whining to the CRTC that this will destroy them financially. The proposal is so dead. __________________ OTA brings you crystal-clear, uncompressed HDTV, no simsubbing, and the real SuperBowl commercials. You can't get all that on satellite... OR CABLE.

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2009-08-19, 06:19 AM	#32
apn Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 569	Finally, something in this country that delivers a fraction of the FreeView & FreeSat offering in the UK. Commercial TV was always supposed to be supported by advertising, so I've never understood why both advertisers AND viewers pay over here (we also get billed for both sides of a cell phone call).

2009-08-19, 07:43 AM	#34
Shear Force Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 144	I wish him all the luck. However his business model is full of holes. First of all, the total cost/customer will be approx $550 to $600 - including cost of dish, installation, receiver cost + marketing costs/retailer markup. Plus he has the cost of 1 32 transponder satellite~ $400m usd. (He can get 7 HD channels or 28 SD/transponder using DVB-S2 MPEG4). As a satellite veteran, he wouldn't be so stupid as to use Nagra. So his choices are NDS or DCII encryption. Either way DirecTV or Shaw own the middleware, so he would need to have his own code written. In addition he has to pay for fibre feeds from each city to to Ciel's uplink in Sask. So how many consumers will fork out $600 for their local channels? And remember he makes $0 unless the customer upgrades to paying services. I wonder what his real goal is. Remember Voom.

2009-08-19, 11:40 AM	#36
DanTou Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Quebec City Posts: 338	Shear Force, read all the posts... Go back to post 28. $299, not $600. I guess customers who just bought an HDTV may want to fork out $300 to get 15 to 20 HD channels free. A lot of them may want to fork out $300 to get off the $20/month basic cable/satellite subscription. I know people who would pay $300 to get off the $20/month basic cable/satellite even if it weren't HD! I'm writing $20/month but I believe it's actually higher. By the way, by 2011, everybody will have to buy a HD decoder of some kind. He doesn't have to write his own code. He code use code from satellites in other countries. VOOM was too early, not enough people had HD TV at home. Dr.Dave, Bell/Shaw/Vidéotron/Rogers already has started fighting like crazy! Shear Force, who do you work for? I may be wrong, but this is the typical answers I got used to from people at Vidéotron: They put keywords like NDS, DCII, DVB-S2, MPEG4 and more technical detail to say why it can't be done. Always overlook other possible solutions. No creative thinking. So much pessimism. If everybody asks for this, it will happen. It's not like Bell/Shaw/Vidéotron/Rogers are doing a good job, are leaders in number of channels or quality, or the least expensive services in the world. Last time I checked, we were near the bottom.

2009-08-19, 12:00 PM	#37
classicsat Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kincardine ON. Posts: 3,943	FFC would be on the part of the station, not the provider, or at least they can negotiate a free carriage. As for security, there are CA providers other than Nagra and NDS, although it might be economically smart to license the DirecTV platform, which his already made receivers, which I beleive are DVB-S2 for their MPEG4 HD, and meet North Americal power and video standards. Software wouldn't need written, just re-branded and slightly tweaked, and a French language module added. And yes, if it does launch and work, it could make at least satellite providers rethink their subscription model WRT locals. As for free locals on cable, they could do what they do in India, analog cable is free for connecting, digital cable you need a box and subscription. Mind you, mostly that is because they cannot manage tap connections, not becasue they have an altruistic thought of giving locals away. As for why pay for commercials. This basically stems from the fact in North America, specialty channels were first delivered to conumers by cable which was pay from the start, and becasue of that, cable basically dictated to consumer satellite systems that game. In Europe, satellite and the specialty channels came first, and they basically dictated to the then emerging cable companies that them being on satellite for free is their business. As for the British TV license, you get a lot of value for it, considering what you can get free from antenna or satellite. Mind you, there isn't much in HD there, quite yet. Detector trucks are a 3rd resort, if letters and intimidation don't work. I would gladly pay a modest TV license fee, for the right to receive a certain amount of programming for free on what equipment I want. In the bigger picture, it can be done technically. It is just a matter of economics, a business model to support free DTH, and regulatory approval and industry acceptance.

2009-08-19, 03:03 PM	#40
DanTou Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Quebec City Posts: 338	You think there will still be analog on cable? OK, I should have said: "everybody will have to buy a digital decoder of some kind if they don't already have one".

2009-08-19, 03:07 PM	#41
james99 Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burlington Posts: 24,791	It's not uncommon for people to mix up Digital with HD.

2009-08-19, 03:08 PM	#42
trask Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 203	It's nice in theory, but they are still going to be bound by our archaic CanCon laws, and the fact most of the country still isn't set up for all HD programming. At least it's more competition which can't hurt.

2009-08-19, 03:31 PM	#43
Reed Solomon Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: West K, Winnipeg Posts: 163	If I could connect their box to some sort of external PVR I'd be interested. If they go with Motorola I hope the technology has advanced enough that they don't still have big ass grey boxes as starchoice and the like have. I just want basic cable HD anyways, with a few higher tier things. I'd go for it, and heck I have some old dishes I could reuse anyways.

2009-08-19, 03:48 PM	#45
classicsat Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kincardine ON. Posts: 3,943	My belief is Cancon will be easy, as far as channels go, which is all a BDU has to worry about. If they choos not to carry US locals, there will be no problem. As for an extenral PVR/DVR, there would be no problem with that; all providers support that, except there is no standalone HD-DVR you use with a provider box anyhow, just SD.