Area 51 for Antenna Modelers & Builders (See Post #1) - Page 28 - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

300ohm · 2009-09-06, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Why I don't know since they only have 4 9.x channels and you can have up to 6.

The other night, I picked up a station 30 around NYC accidently dxing that had 10 channels. (10 channels of pretty much crap content, heh) It depends on the quality of the broadcast they choose to send out. They can also transmit audio only digital channels, which dont take up much bandwidth. 1080i channels take up a lot of bandwidth.

Vorg · 2009-09-06, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holl_ands

I was looking at post #104 in the Fractal thread:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=957893
If you used your street address, you might find more believeable results using LAT/LOG,
such as from GoogleEarth.....or perhaps The CW's ERP is less than that assumed in TVFool.....

using lat/lon at http://stevemorse.org/jcal/latlon.php
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8ecd34efd348cd

holl_ands · 2009-09-06, 02:55 PM

That still shows The CW at strong, just under overload levels (presuming they
really are at 1000 kW ERP)/.

All too frequently, the address to LAT/LONG look-up sites can be way off, due to database deficiencies....

Now try pin-pointing your house in GoogleEarth and enter THOSE coordinates (+/- 100-ft).
You might have to go into TOOLS/Options to change to Decimal Degrees.
TVFool results will either round off LAT/LONG to only two decimal points (for privacy)
or only displays the dB entry number.

Also let us know if you have any nearby hills or if nearby buildings are taller than yours.

wildwillie · 2009-09-06, 05:02 PM

holl_ands earlier in the thread here i was talking about using the element as reflector and i did never post it for you to look at . i had to take and flip the element around to get the swr back down.

i have not run a AGT this was just a test.

Code:

CM Chireix-Mesny 2by4Square Array, 2CtrFedTL3, 4nec2 by holl_ands, 1Sep2009
CM WL=10.2-in at Ang=45-deg. 
CM test only by wildwillie
CM 
CM 
CM 
CE
GW	2	7	0	7.61248937	-0.0124894	0	0.4	7.2	0.04
GW	3	7	0	0.4	7.2	0	7.61248937	14.412489	0.04
GW	4	7	0	7.61248937	14.412489	0	0.4	21.6249787	0.04
GW	5	7	0	0.4	21.6249787	0	7.61248937	28.8374677	0.04
GW	6	7	0	8.36248937	-0.0124894	0	15.574978	7.2	0.04
GW	7	7	0	15.574978	7.2	0	8.36248937	14.412489	0.04
GW	8	7	0	8.36248937	14.412489	0	15.574978	21.6249787	0.04
GW	9	7	0	15.574978	21.6249787	0	8.36248937	28.8374677	0.04
GW	10	7	0	0.4	-7.2249783	0	7.61248937	-0.0124894	0.04
GW	11	7	0	7.61248937	-14.437469	0	0.4	-7.2249783	0.04
GW	12	7	0	0.4	-21.649959	0	7.61248937	-14.437469	0.04
GW	13	7	0	7.61248937	-28.862449	0	0.4	-21.649959	0.04
GW	14	7	0	15.574978	-7.2249783	0	8.36248937	-0.0124894	0.04
GW	15	7	0	8.36248937	-14.437469	0	15.574978	-7.2249783	0.04
GW	16	7	0	15.574978	-21.649959	0	8.36248937	-14.437469	0.04
GW	17	7	0	8.36248937	-28.862449	0	15.574978	-21.649959	0.04
GW	19	7	0	-8.312489	-0.0124894	0	-15.524979	7.2	0.04
GW	20	7	0	-15.524979	7.2	0	-8.312489	14.412489	0.04
GW	21	7	0	-8.312489	14.412489	0	-15.524979	21.6249787	0.04
GW	22	7	0	-15.524979	21.6249787	0	-8.312489	28.8374677	0.04
GW	23	7	0	-7.562489	-0.0124894	0	-0.35	7.2	0.04
GW	24	7	0	-0.35	7.2	0	-7.562489	14.412489	0.04
GW	25	7	0	-7.562489	14.412489	0	-0.35	21.6249787	0.04
GW	26	7	0	-0.35	21.6249787	0	-7.562489	28.8374677	0.04
GW	27	7	0	-15.524979	-7.2249783	0	-8.312489	-0.0124894	0.04
GW	28	7	0	-8.312489	-14.437469	0	-15.524979	-7.2249783	0.04
GW	29	7	0	-15.524979	-21.649959	0	-8.312489	-14.437469	0.04
GW	30	7	0	-8.312489	-28.862449	0	-15.524979	-21.649959	0.04
GW	31	7	0	-0.35	-7.2249783	0	-7.562489	-0.0124894	0.04
GW	32	7	0	-7.562489	-14.437469	0	-0.35	-7.2249783	0.04
GW	33	7	0	-0.35	-21.649959	0	-7.562489	-14.437469	0.04
GW	34	7	0	-7.562489	-28.862449	0	-0.35	-21.649959	0.04
GW	35	1	-4.22	0.02748937	-0.3874894	-4.22	0.02748937	0.36251063	0.101
GW	36	5	-3.92	5.11748937	-0.2924894	-4.22	0.02748937	-0.3874894	0.04
GW	37	5	-4.45	5.12748937	0.26751063	-4.22	0.02748937	0.36251063	0.04
GW	38	5	-4.45	-5.0725106	-0.2924894	-4.22	0.02748937	-0.3874894	0.04
GW	39	5	-3.92	-5.0725106	0.26751063	-4.22	0.02748937	0.36251063	0.04
GW	40	5	-3.92	5.11748937	-0.2924894	0	8.36248937	-0.0124894	0.04
GW	41	5	-4.45	5.12748937	0.26751063	0	7.61248937	-0.0124894	0.04
GW	42	5	-4.45	-5.0725106	-0.2924894	0	-7.5625106	-0.0124894	0.04
GW	43	5	-3.92	-5.0725106	0.26751063	0	-8.3125106	-0.0124894	0.04
GW	44	7	-5	7.5	-0.0124894	-5	0.28751063	7.2	0.04
GW	45	7	-5	0.28751063	7.2	-5	7.5	14.412489	0.04
GW	46	7	-5	7.5	14.412489	-5	0.28751063	21.6249787	0.04
GW	47	7	-5	0.28751063	21.6249787	-5	7.5	28.8374677	0.04
GW	48	7	-5	8.25	-0.0124894	-5	15.4624886	7.2	0.04
GW	49	7	-5	15.4624886	7.2	-5	8.25	14.412489	0.04
GW	50	7	-5	8.25	14.412489	-5	15.4624886	21.6249787	0.04
GW	51	7	-5	15.4624886	21.6249787	-5	8.25	28.8374677	0.04
GW	52	7	-5	0.28751063	-7.2249783	-5	7.5	-0.0124894	0.04
GW	53	7	-5	7.5	-14.437469	-5	0.28751063	-7.2249783	0.04
GW	54	7	-5	0.28751063	-21.649959	-5	7.5	-14.437469	0.04
GW	55	7	-5	7.5	-28.862449	-5	0.28751063	-21.649959	0.04
GW	56	7	-5	15.4624886	-7.2249783	-5	8.25	-0.0124894	0.04
GW	57	7	-5	8.25	-14.437469	-5	15.4624886	-7.2249783	0.04
GW	58	7	-5	15.4624886	-21.649959	-5	8.25	-14.437469	0.04
GW	59	7	-5	8.25	-28.862449	-5	15.4624886	-21.649959	0.04
GW	60	7	-5	-8.4249783	-0.0124894	-5	-15.637468	7.2	0.04
GW	61	7	-5	-15.637468	7.2	-5	-8.4249783	14.412489	0.04
GW	62	7	-5	-8.4249783	14.412489	-5	-15.637468	21.6249787	0.04
GW	63	7	-5	-15.637468	21.6249787	-5	-8.4249783	28.8374677	0.04
GW	64	7	-5	-7.6749783	-0.0124894	-5	-0.4624894	7.2	0.04
GW	65	7	-5	-0.4624894	7.2	-5	-7.6749783	14.412489	0.04
GW	66	7	-5	-7.6749783	14.412489	-5	-0.4624894	21.6249787	0.04
GW	67	7	-5	-0.4624894	21.6249787	-5	-7.6749783	28.8374677	0.04
GW	68	7	-5	-15.637468	-7.2249783	-5	-8.4249783	-0.0124894	0.04
GW	69	7	-5	-8.4249783	-14.437469	-5	-15.637468	-7.2249783	0.04
GW	70	7	-5	-15.637468	-21.649959	-5	-8.4249783	-14.437469	0.04
GW	71	7	-5	-8.4249783	-28.862449	-5	-15.637468	-21.649959	0.04
GW	72	7	-5	-0.4624894	-7.2249783	-5	-7.6749783	-0.0124894	0.04
GW	73	7	-5	-7.6749783	-14.437469	-5	-0.4624894	-7.2249783	0.04
GW	74	7	-5	-0.4624894	-21.649959	-5	-7.6749783	-14.437469	0.04
GW	75	7	-5	-7.6749783	-28.862449	-5	-0.4624894	-21.649959	0.04
GS	0	0	0.0254		' All in in.
GE	0
EK
LD	5	0	0	0	5.8e7	0
EX	0	35	1	0	1	0
GN	-1
FR	0	1	0	0	170	0
RP 0 1 73 1510 90 0 1 5 0 0

THis was

Code:

CM 
CM by wildwillie play with the element reflectors to level out the gain
CE
GW	1	25	0	0.25	0	0	7.49784449	7.24784449	0.04
GW	2	25	0	-7.7478445	-7.2478445	0	-0.5	0	0.04
GW	3	25	0	7.49784449	-7.2478445	0	0.25	0	0.04
GW	4	25	0	-0.5	0	0	-7.7478445	7.24784449	0.04
GW	5	25	0	7.49784449	7.24784449	0	0.25	14.495689	0.04
GW	6	25	0	-0.5	-14.495689	0	-7.7478445	-7.2478445	0.04
GW	7	25	0	-7.7478445	7.24784449	0	-0.5	14.495689	0.04
GW	8	25	0	0.25	-14.495689	0	7.49784449	-7.2478445	0.04
GW	9	3	0	-0.5	0	0	0.25	0	0.04
GW	10	25	-8	8	0	-13.125	13.125	7.24784449	0.04
GW	11	25	-2.34467	2.3446697	-7.2478445	-7.46967	7.4696697	0	0.04
GW	12	25	-13.125	13.125	-7.2478445	-8	8	0	0.04
GW	13	25	-7.46967	7.4696697	0	-2.34467	2.3446697	7.24784449	0.04
GW	14	25	-13.125	13.125	7.24784449	-8	8	14.495689	0.04
GW	15	25	-7.46967	7.46967	-14.49569	-2.34467	2.34467	-7.247844	0.04
GW	16	25	-2.34467	2.34467	7.2478445	-7.46967	7.46967	14.495689	0.04
GW	17	25	-8	8	-14.495689	-13.125	13.125	-7.2478445	0.04
GW	18	3	-7.46967	7.4696697	0	-8	8	0	0.04
GW	19	25	-13	-4.5	0	-18.125	-9.625	7.24784449	0.04
GW	20	25	-7.3446697	1.1553299	-7.2478445	-12.46967	-3.96967	0	0.04
GW	21	25	-18.125	-9.625	-7.2478445	-13	-4.5	0	0.04
GW	22	25	-12.46967	-3.96967	0	-7.3446697	1.1553299	7.24784449	0.04
GW	23	25	-18.125	-9.625	7.24784449	-13	-4.5	14.495689	0.04
GW	24	25	-12.46967	-3.96967	-14.49569	-7.34467	1.15533	-7.247844	0.04
GW	25	25	-7.34467	1.15533	7.2478445	-12.46967	-3.96967	14.495689	0.04
GW	26	25	-13	-4.5	-14.495689	-18.125	-9.625	-7.2478445	0.04
GW	27	3	-12.46967	-3.96967	0	-13	-4.5	0	0.04
GS	0	0	0.0254		' All in in.
GE	0
LD	5	0	0	0	5.8e7	0
EX	0	9	2	0	1	0
GN	-1
FR	0	1	0	0	585	0

Vorg · 2009-09-06, 08:17 PM

I think the lat/long where correct, but here is a new one zoomed into our roof:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8ecd5400b6abb0

Looks about the same. Keep in mind also that the broadcasters around here don't really seem to know what they are doing. When 58 was 58, it was the worst signal, even with a big yagi or what ever it's called, about 4' long, the picture was still snowy. And even after the transition, for a couple days, switing to 58.1 got you 58.2, a spanish channel because they messed up the PID data. and it wasn't until about a month ago that they figured out how to send EPG data. The other stations are a bit better with PBS 6.x/27.x doing the best.

It seems to me that the locations are far enough apart that if the antennas are directional enough, combining antennas shouldn't interfere with each other as each would only be picking up what it was aimed at. The main problem with be the loss of the combiner. and with enough gain, that should be over come.

I am still wondeirg about the element size. Just testing with a square loop, between #14 and 1/2" pipe, I didn't see much differnce in gain. though the SWR seemed lower with the low point shifted up. Is that the main advantage?

Forgot to mention, I am on a bit of a hill and there are no tall buildings near by. couple trees, not very dence.

wildwillie · 2009-09-06, 10:26 PM

Vorg I'm tring to pattern form for you i hope this patteren mite work

Code:

CM x411  hope this mite work for Vorg
CM pattern forming by wildwillie 
CM reflectors are on 45 degree angal's
CE
GW	1	25	1	9	0	1	1.752155	7.24784449	0.04
GW	2	25	1	16.9978445	-7.2478445	1	9.75	0	0.04
GW	3	25	1	1.752155	-7.2478445	1	9	0	0.04
GW	4	25	1	9.75	0	1	16.9978445	7.24784449	0.04
GW	5	25	1	1.752155	7.24784449	1	9	14.495689	0.04
GW	6	25	1	9.75	-14.495689	1	16.9978445	-7.2478445	0.04
GW	7	25	1	16.9978445	7.24784449	1	9.75	14.495689	0.04
GW	8	25	1	9	-14.495689	1	1.752155	-7.2478445	0.04
GW	9	3	1	9.75	0	1	9	0	0.04
GW	19	25	-4.96967	0.03033	0	0.15533	5.15533	7.24784449	0.04
GW	20	25	-10.625	-5.625	-7.2478445	-5.5	-0.5	0	0.04
GW	21	25	0.15533	5.15533	-7.2478445	-4.96967	0.03033	0	0.04
GW	22	25	-5.5	-0.5	0	-10.625	-5.625	7.24784449	0.04
GW	23	25	0.15533	5.15533	7.24784449	-4.96967	0.03033	14.495689	0.04
GW	24	25	-5.5	-0.5	-14.49569	-10.625	-5.625	-7.247844	0.04
GW	25	25	-10.625	-5.625	7.2478445	-5.5	-0.5	14.495689	0.04
GW	26	25	-4.96967	0.03033	-14.495689	0.15533	5.15533	-7.2478445	0.04
GW	27	3	-5.5	-0.5	0	-4.96967	0.03033	0	0.04
GW	28	25	-5	5.5	0	0.125	10.625	7.24784449	0.04
GW	29	25	-10.65533	-0.15533	-7.2478445	-5.53033	4.96967	0	0.04
GW	30	25	0.125	10.625	-7.2478445	-5	5.5	0	0.04
GW	31	25	-5.53033	4.96967	0	-10.65533	-0.15533	7.24784449	0.04
GW	32	25	0.125	10.625	7.24784449	-5	5.5	14.495689	0.04
GW	33	25	-5.53033	4.96967	-14.49569	-10.65533	-0.15533	-7.247844	0.04
GW	34	25	-10.65533	-0.15533	7.2478445	-5.53033	4.96967	14.495689	0.04
GW	35	25	-5	5.5	-14.495689	0.125	10.625	-7.2478445	0.04
GW	36	3	-5.53033	4.96967	0	-5	5.5	0	0.04
GW	37	25	-5	9.5	0	0.125	14.625	7.24784449	0.04
GW	38	25	-10.65533	3.84467	-7.2478445	-5.53033	8.96967	0	0.04
GW	39	25	0.125	14.625	-7.2478445	-5	9.5	0	0.04
GW	40	25	-5.53033	8.96967	0	-10.65533	3.84467	7.24784449	0.04
GW	41	25	0.125	14.625	7.24784449	-5	9.5	14.495689	0.04
GW	42	25	-5.53033	8.96967	-14.49569	-10.65533	3.84467	-7.247844	0.04
GW	43	25	-10.65533	3.84467	7.2478445	-5.53033	8.96967	14.495689	0.04
GW	44	25	-5	9.5	-14.495689	0.125	14.625	-7.2478445	0.04
GW	45	3	-5.53033	8.96967	0	-5	9.5	0	0.04
GW	46	25	-5.03033	14.96967	0	0.09467	20.09467	7.24784449	0.04
GW	47	25	-10.68566	9.31434	-7.2478445	-5.56066	14.43934	0	0.04
GW	48	25	0.09467	20.09467	-7.2478445	-5.03033	14.96967	0	0.04
GW	49	25	-5.56066	14.43934	0	-10.68566	9.31434	7.24784449	0.04
GW	50	25	0.09467	20.09467	7.24784449	-5.03033	14.96967	14.495689	0.04
GW	51	25	-5.56066	14.43934	-14.49569	-10.68566	9.31434	-7.247844	0.04
GW	52	25	-10.68566	9.31434	7.2478445	-5.56066	14.43934	14.495689	0.04
GW	53	25	-5.03033	14.96967	-14.495689	0.09467	20.09467	-7.2478445	0.04
GW	54	3	-5.56066	14.43934	0	-5.03033	14.96967	0	0.04
GW	82	25	-5.06066	-5.06066	0	0.06434	0.06434	7.24784449	0.04
GW	83	25	-10.71599	-10.71599	-7.2478445	-5.59099	-5.59099	0	0.04
GW	84	25	0.06434	0.06434	-7.2478445	-5.06066	-5.06066	0	0.04
GW	85	25	-5.59099	-5.59099	0	-10.71599	-10.71599	7.24784449	0.04
GW	86	25	0.06434	0.06434	7.24784449	-5.06066	-5.06066	14.495689	0.04
GW	87	25	-5.59099	-5.59099	-14.49569	-10.71599	-10.71599	-7.247844	0.04
GW	88	25	-10.71599	-10.71599	7.2478445	-5.59099	-5.59099	14.495689	0.04
GW	89	25	-5.06066	-5.06066	-14.495689	0.06434	0.06434	-7.2478445	0.04
GW	90	3	-5.59099	-5.59099	0	-5.06066	-5.06066	0	0.04
GS	0	0	0.0254		' All in in.
GE	0
LD	5	0	0	0	5.8e7	0
EX	0	9	2	0	1	0
GN	-1
FR	0	1	0	0	585	0

wildwillie · 2009-09-06, 11:46 PM

Thought you mite want to look at a GH also.Nice thing about the 45 degree it does not play with the AGT to much

Code:

CM x412 SBGH   
CM Patteren design wildwilie 
CM reflector rods at 45 degrees
CE
GW	1	11	1	-8	0	1	-3.5905512	0	0.11889764
GW	2	19	1	-3.5905512	0	1	1.9212598	5.51181102	0.13779528
GW	3	19	1	1.9212598	5.51181102	1	-3.5905512	11.023622	0.13779528
GW	4	19	1	-3.5905512	11.023622	1	1.9212598	16.5354331	0.13779528
GW	5	11	1	1.9212598	16.5354331	1	6.1338583	16.5354331	0.13779528
GW	6	19	1	-3.5905512	0	1	1.9212598	-5.511811	0.13779528
GW	7	19	1	1.9212598	-5.511811	1	-3.5905512	-11.023622	0.13779528
GW	8	19	1	-3.5905512	-11.023622	1	1.9212598	-16.535433	0.13779528
GW	9	11	1	1.9212598	-16.535433	1	6.1338583	-16.535433	0.13779528
GW	10	19	1	-8	0	1	-13.511811	5.51181102	0.13779528
GW	11	19	1	-13.511811	5.51181102	1	-8	11.023622	0.13779528
GW	12	19	1	-8	11.023622	1	-13.511811	16.5354331	0.13779528
GW	13	11	1	-13.511811	16.5354331	1	-17.724409	16.5354331	0.13779528
GW	14	19	1	-8	0	1	-13.511811	-5.511811	0.13779528
GW	15	19	1	-13.511811	-5.511811	1	-8	-11.023622	0.13779528
GW	16	19	1	-8	-11.023622	1	-13.511811	-16.535433	0.13779528
GW	17	11	1	-13.511811	-16.535433	1	-17.724409	-16.535433	0.13779528
GW	18	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	0	0	-21	0	0.13779528
GW	19	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	1	0	-21	1	0.13779528
GW	20	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	2	0	-21	2	0.13779528
GW	21	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	3	0	-21	3	0.13779528
GW	23	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	5	0	-21	5	0.13779528
GW	24	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	6	0	-21	6	0.13779528
GW	26	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	8	0	-21	8	0.13779528
GW	28	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	10	0	-21	10	0.13779528
GW	29	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	11	0	-21	11	0.13779528
GW	31	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	13	0	-21	13	0.13779528
GW	32	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	14	0	-21	14	0.13779528
GW	33	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	15	0	-21	15	0.13779528
GW	34	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	16	0	-21	16	0.13779528
GW	36	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	18	0	-21	18	0.13779528
GW	37	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	19	0	-21	19	0.13779528
GW	39	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	-4	0	-21	-4	0.13779528
GW	42	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	-1	0	-21	-1	0.13779528
GW	43	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	-10	0	-21	-10	0.13779528
GW	44	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	-9	0	-21	-9	0.13779528
GW	45	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	-8	0	-21	-8	0.13779528
GW	46	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	-7	0	-21	-7	0.13779528
GW	47	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	-6	0	-21	-6	0.13779528
GW	48	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	-15	0	-21	-15	0.13779528
GW	49	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	-14	0	-21	-14	0.13779528
GW	50	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	-13	0	-21	-13	0.13779528
GW	54	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	-19	0	-21	-19	0.13779528
GW	55	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	-18	0	-21	-18	0.13779528
GW	57	63	-17.67767	-3.3223306	-16	0	-21	-16	0.13779528
GW	58	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	0	0.355339	-18.355339	0	0.13779528
GW	59	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	1	0.355339	-18.355339	1	0.13779528
GW	60	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	2	0.355339	-18.355339	2	0.13779528
GW	61	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	3	0.355339	-18.355339	3	0.13779528
GW	62	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	5	0.355339	-18.355339	5	0.13779528
GW	63	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	6	0.355339	-18.355339	6	0.13779528
GW	64	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	8	0.355339	-18.355339	8	0.13779528
GW	65	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	10	0.355339	-18.355339	10	0.13779528
GW	66	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	11	0.355339	-18.355339	11	0.13779528
GW	67	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	13	0.355339	-18.355339	13	0.13779528
GW	68	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	14	0.355339	-18.355339	14	0.13779528
GW	69	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	15	0.355339	-18.355339	15	0.13779528
GW	70	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	16	0.355339	-18.355339	16	0.13779528
GW	71	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	18	0.355339	-18.355339	18	0.13779528
GW	72	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	19	0.355339	-18.355339	19	0.13779528
GW	73	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	-4	0.355339	-18.355339	-4	0.13779528
GW	74	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	-1	0.355339	-18.355339	-1	0.13779528
GW	75	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	-10	0.355339	-18.355339	-10	0.13779528
GW	76	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	-9	0.355339	-18.355339	-9	0.13779528
GW	77	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	-8	0.355339	-18.355339	-8	0.13779528
GW	78	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	-7	0.355339	-18.355339	-7	0.13779528
GW	79	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	-6	0.355339	-18.355339	-6	0.13779528
GW	80	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	-15	0.355339	-18.355339	-15	0.13779528
GW	81	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	-14	0.355339	-18.355339	-14	0.13779528
GW	82	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	-13	0.355339	-18.355339	-13	0.13779528
GW	83	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	-19	0.355339	-18.355339	-19	0.13779528
GW	84	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	-18	0.355339	-18.355339	-18	0.13779528
GW	85	63	-17.322331	-0.67767	-16	0.355339	-18.355339	-16	0.13779528
GS	0	0	0.0254		' All in in.
GE	0
EK
LD	5	0	0	0	2.49e7	0
EX	0	1	6	0	1	0
GN	-1
FR	0	1	0	0	585	0

holl_ands · 2009-09-07, 10:33 AM

Vorg:
Your are correct, small diameter wires (e.g. AWG14) cause a noticeable loss in
Net Gain, but Raw Gain for AWG14 won't be all that different than 1/2-in pipe at
either UHF or Hi-VHF.

I wouldn't worry too much about SWR until it gets above about 2-3...after all the
OTHER components (e.g. Preamp, Tuner, Splitter, et. al.) might be even higher....

But here you'll see that SWR is becoming quite large for AWG12 in a UHF Circular Loop.
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/uhfcircular
Square Loop won't be that much different....

Which (again) brings up the point....who cares about SWR????
You should if you have more than a couple dozen feet of coax, cuz the reflections
not only cause nulls on the line for certain channels, but these reflections ALSO
look like small delay multipath....which the ATSC equalizers don't like....
A Preamp located close to the antenna avoids a lot of these problems.

PS: I found a circular loop made from 1/4" or "3/8" (1/2" O.D.) refrigerator tubing
was a lot easier to build than brazing together some 1/2" copper pipe....

wildwillie · 2009-09-07, 12:05 PM

Here is a GH with 31 inch 45 degree patteren forming reflectors the gain is about 9dbi and with Vorgs antenna farms displaced as they are this should get most of them.

I also found that vertal direction looks to stay the same.

Code:

CM SBGH GH4  
CM x414 Patteren design wildwilie 
CM reflector rods at 45 degrees 31 inches long
CE
GW	1	11	9	-9	0	9	-4.590551	0	0.11889764
GW	2	19	9	-4.590551	0	9	0.92126	5.51181102	0.13779528
GW	3	19	9	0.92126	5.51181102	9	-4.590551	11.023622	0.13779528
GW	4	19	9	-4.590551	11.023622	9	0.92126	16.5354331	0.13779528
GW	5	11	9	0.92126	16.5354331	9	5.1338585	16.5354331	0.13779528
GW	6	19	9	-4.590551	0	9	0.92126	-5.511811	0.13779528
GW	7	19	9	0.92126	-5.511811	9	-4.590551	-11.023622	0.13779528
GW	8	19	9	-4.590551	-11.023622	9	0.92126	-16.535433	0.13779528
GW	9	11	9	0.92126	-16.535433	9	5.1338585	-16.535433	0.13779528
GW	10	19	9	-9	0	9	-14.511811	5.51181102	0.13779528
GW	11	19	9	-14.511811	5.51181102	9	-9	11.023622	0.13779528
GW	12	19	9	-9	11.023622	9	-14.511811	16.5354331	0.13779528
GW	13	11	9	-14.511811	16.5354331	9	-18.724409	16.5354331	0.13779528
GW	14	19	9	-9	0	9	-14.511811	-5.511811	0.13779528
GW	15	19	9	-14.511811	-5.511811	9	-9	-11.023622	0.13779528
GW	16	19	9	-9	-11.023622	9	-14.511811	-16.535433	0.13779528
GW	17	11	9	-14.511811	-16.535433	9	-18.724409	-16.535433	0.13779528
GW	18	77	-22.92031	-14.92031	0	-1	7	0	0.13779528
GW	19	77	-22.92031	-14.92031	5	-1	7	5	0.13779528
GW	20	77	-22.92031	-14.92031	10	-1	7	10	0.13779528
GW	21	77	-22.92031	-14.92031	-5	-1	7	-5	0.13779528
GW	22	77	-22.92031	-14.92031	-10	-1	7	-10	0.13779528
GW	23	77	-22.92031	-14.92031	-15	-1	7	-15	0.13779528
GW	24	77	-22.92031	-14.92031	15	-1	7	15	0.13779528
GS	0	0	0.0254		' All in in.
GE	0
EK
LD	5	0	0	0	2.49e7	0
EX	0	1	6	0	1	0
GN	-1
FR	0	1	0	0	585	0

300ohm · 2009-09-07, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Which (again) brings up the point....who cares about SWR????
You should if you have more than a couple dozen feet of coax, cuz the reflections not only cause nulls on the line for certain channels, but these reflections ALSO look like small delay multipath....which the ATSC equalizers don't like....

Very true. But as half-a$$ perfectionist modelers, we might as well should strive to get a good starting point at the antenna terminals, heh.

On the other hand, some of the oldie but goodie old commercial antennas had some pretty bad SWRs, above 3 to 5, and still worked OK. (just wait until I post my nec measurements of my big AntennaCraft corner reflector)

300ohm · 2009-09-07, 04:18 PM

Wildwillie, pretty good job of distorting the pattern with the slant reflectors. I kind of wondered what they would look like. What a general mess, heh. Keep it up ! Unusual and weird is always good.

Vorg · 2009-09-07, 08:07 PM

Quote:

PS: I found a circular loop made from 1/4" or "3/8" (1/2" O.D.) refrigerator tubing
was a lot easier to build than brazing together some 1/2" copper pipe....

My dad is a general contractor and when we work with coper pipe we solder with silver solder. Solder with lead has been outlawed for water lines because of the dangers of lead.

Quote:

Very true. But as half-a$$ perfectionist modelers, we might as well should strive to get a good starting point at the antenna terminals, heh.

I am something of a perfectionist when I build stuff, both for function and looks.

wildwillie · 2009-09-08, 11:26 AM

I used the GH4 SBGH by John E. Davis for x418
the elements are set at 45 degress along with the reflectors
the reflectors are spaced at 2 inches apart so either rods or mesh could be used.

Johns element is setup for 700 mhz which is good for my area thats were my detriot stations begin on my scan.

The SWR is nice from 470 to 825

300ohms now to play with your DBGH I have an idea hehe

Code:

CM x418
CM SBGH by John E. Davis
CM (wire Diam =7mm for array and reflectors)
CM 45 degree element placement and reflectors 
CM by wildwillie 
CE
GW	1	7	-5.2500004	1.4999996	0	-5.25	-1	0	0.11889764
GW	2	19	-5.25	-1	0	-1.352561	-4.897439	5.51181102	0.13779528
GW	3	19	-1.352561	-4.8974394	5.511811	-5.25	-1.0000004	11.023622	0.1377953
GW	4	19	-5.25	-1.0000004	11.023622	-1.352561	-4.8974394	16.535433	0.1377953
GW	5	11	-1.352561	-4.89744	16.535433	1.6261996	-7.8762	16.535433	0.1377953
GW	6	19	-5.25	-1	0	-1.352561	-4.897439	-5.511811	0.13779528
GW	7	19	-1.352561	-4.8974394	-5.511811	-5.25	-1.0000004	-11.02362	0.1377953
GW	8	19	-5.25	-1.0000004	-11.02362	-1.352561	-4.8974394	-16.53543	0.1377953
GW	9	11	-1.352561	-4.89744	-16.53543	1.6261996	-7.8762	-16.53543	0.1377953
GW	10	19	-5.25	1.5	0	-1.352561	5.39743898	5.51181102	0.1377953
GW	11	19	-1.3525614	5.397439	5.511811	-5.25	1.5	11.023622	0.1377953
GW	12	19	-5.25	1.5	11.023622	-1.3525614	5.397439	16.535433	0.1377953
GW	13	11	-1.352561	5.3974382	16.535433	1.6261992	8.376199	16.535433	0.1377953
GW	14	19	-5.2500004	1.4999996	0	-1.3525614	5.39743859	-5.511811	0.13779528
GW	15	19	-1.3525614	5.397439	-5.511811	-5.25	1.5	-11.02362	0.1377953
GW	16	19	-5.25	1.5	-11.02362	-1.3525614	5.397439	-16.53543	0.1377953
GW	17	11	-1.352561	5.3974382	-16.53543	1.6261992	8.376199	-16.53543	0.1377953
GW	21	29	-8	-5.6914953	2	0.30850472	-14	2	0.1377953
GW	22	29	-8	6.05850472	2	0.30850472	14.3670094	2	0.1377953
GW	23	29	-8	-5.6914953	2	-8	6.05850472	2	0.1377953
GW	24	29	-8	-5.6914953	4	0.30850472	-14	4	0.1377953
GW	25	29	-8	6.05850472	4	0.30850472	14.3670094	4	0.1377953
GW	26	29	-8	-5.6914953	4	-8	6.05850472	4	0.1377953
GW	27	29	-8	-5.6914953	6	0.30850472	-14	6	0.1377953
GW	28	29	-8	6.05850472	6	0.30850472	14.3670094	6	0.1377953
GW	29	29	-8	-5.6914953	6	-8	6.05850472	6	0.1377953
GW	30	29	-8	-5.6914953	8	0.30850472	-14	8	0.1377953
GW	31	29	-8	6.05850472	8	0.30850472	14.3670094	8	0.1377953
GW	32	29	-8	-5.6914953	8	-8	6.05850472	8	0.1377953
GW	33	29	-8	-5.6914953	10	0.30850472	-14	10	0.1377953
GW	34	29	-8	6.05850472	10	0.30850472	14.3670094	10	0.1377953
GW	35	29	-8	-5.6914953	10	-8	6.05850472	10	0.1377953
GW	36	29	-8	-5.6914953	12	0.30850472	-14	12	0.1377953
GW	37	29	-8	6.05850472	12	0.30850472	14.3670094	12	0.1377953
GW	38	29	-8	-5.6914953	12	-8	6.05850472	12	0.1377953
GW	39	29	-8	-5.6914953	14	0.30850472	-14	14	0.1377953
GW	40	29	-8	6.05850472	14	0.30850472	14.3670094	14	0.1377953
GW	41	29	-8	-5.6914953	14	-8	6.05850472	14	0.1377953
GW	42	29	-8	-5.6914953	16	0.30850472	-14	16	0.1377953
GW	43	29	-8	6.05850472	16	0.30850472	14.3670094	16	0.1377953
GW	44	29	-8	-5.6914953	16	-8	6.05850472	16	0.1377953
GW	45	29	-8	-5.6914953	18	0.30850472	-14	18	0.1377953
GW	46	29	-8	6.05850472	18	0.30850472	14.3670094	18	0.1377953
GW	47	29	-8	-5.6914953	18	-8	6.05850472	18	0.1377953
GW	48	29	-8	-5.6914953	20	0.30850472	-14	20	0.1377953
GW	49	29	-8	6.05850472	20	0.30850472	14.3670094	20	0.1377953
GW	50	29	-8	-5.6914953	20	-8	6.05850472	20	0.1377953
GW	51	29	-8	-5.6914953	22	0.30850472	-14	22	0.1377953
GW	52	29	-8	6.05850472	22	0.30850472	14.3670094	22	0.1377953
GW	53	29	-8	-5.6914953	22	-8	6.05850472	22	0.1377953
GW	54	29	-8	-5.6914953	-22	0.30850472	-14	-22	0.1377953
GW	55	29	-8	6.05850472	-22	0.30850472	14.3670094	-22	0.1377953
GW	56	29	-8	-5.6914953	-22	-8	6.05850472	-22	0.1377953
GW	57	29	-8	-5.6914953	-20	0.30850472	-14	-20	0.1377953
GW	58	29	-8	6.05850472	-20	0.30850472	14.3670094	-20	0.1377953
GW	59	29	-8	-5.6914953	-20	-8	6.05850472	-20	0.1377953
GW	60	29	-8	-5.6914953	-18	0.30850472	-14	-18	0.1377953
GW	61	29	-8	6.05850472	-18	0.30850472	14.3670094	-18	0.1377953
GW	62	29	-8	-5.6914953	-18	-8	6.05850472	-18	0.1377953
GW	63	29	-8	-5.6914953	-16	0.30850472	-14	-16	0.1377953
GW	64	29	-8	6.05850472	-16	0.30850472	14.3670094	-16	0.1377953
GW	65	29	-8	-5.6914953	-16	-8	6.05850472	-16	0.1377953
GW	66	29	-8	-5.6914953	-14	0.30850472	-14	-14	0.1377953
GW	67	29	-8	6.05850472	-14	0.30850472	14.3670094	-14	0.1377953
GW	68	29	-8	-5.6914953	-14	-8	6.05850472	-14	0.1377953
GW	69	29	-8	-5.6914953	-12	0.30850472	-14	-12	0.1377953
GW	70	29	-8	6.05850472	-12	0.30850472	14.3670094	-12	0.1377953
GW	71	29	-8	-5.6914953	-12	-8	6.05850472	-12	0.1377953
GW	72	29	-8	-5.6914953	-10	0.30850472	-14	-10	0.1377953
GW	73	29	-8	6.05850472	-10	0.30850472	14.3670094	-10	0.1377953
GW	74	29	-8	-5.6914953	-10	-8	6.05850472	-10	0.1377953
GW	75	29	-8	-5.6914953	-8	0.30850472	-14	-8	0.1377953
GW	76	29	-8	6.05850472	-8	0.30850472	14.3670094	-8	0.1377953
GW	77	29	-8	-5.6914953	-8	-8	6.05850472	-8	0.1377953
GW	78	29	-8	-5.6914953	-6	0.30850472	-14	-6	0.1377953
GW	79	29	-8	6.05850472	-6	0.30850472	14.3670094	-6	0.1377953
GW	80	29	-8	-5.6914953	-6	-8	6.05850472	-6	0.1377953
GW	81	29	-8	-5.6914953	-4	0.30850472	-14	-4	0.1377953
GW	82	29	-8	6.05850472	-4	0.30850472	14.3670094	-4	0.1377953
GW	83	29	-8	-5.6914953	-4	-8	6.05850472	-4	0.1377953
GW	84	29	-8	-5.6914953	-2	0.30850472	-14	-2	0.1377953
GW	85	29	-8	6.05850472	-2	0.30850472	14.3670094	-2	0.1377953
GW	86	29	-8	-5.6914953	-2	-8	6.05850472	-2	0.1377953
GW	87	29	-8	-5.6914953	0	0.30850472	-14	0	0.1377953
GW	88	29	-8	6.05850472	0	0.30850472	14.3670094	0	0.1377953
GW	89	29	-8	-5.6914953	0	-8	6.05850472	0	0.1377953
GS	0	0	0.0254		' All in in.
GE	0
EK
LD	5	0	0	0	2.49e7	0
EX	0	1	4	0	1	0
GN	-1
FR	0	1	0	0	585	0

holl_ands · 2009-09-08, 04:30 PM

Ken Nist has not analyzed the new CM4221HD....and although he analyzed
the CM4228HD, he has not (yet) posted the NEC file.

I have been unable to locate either NEC files, detailed measurements,
and/or photos (with a RULER) for either the CM4221HD or CM4228HD.

Anyone out there with detailed dimensions on CM4221HD and CM4228HD????

Dave Loudin · 2009-09-09, 10:37 AM

300ohm, are you sure the 30 was from near NYC? There's a pair of independent public stations from the northern VA area that team up to have 10 subchannels on 30. RF 24 carries 30-1 to 30-5 and RF 30 carries 30-6 to 30-10.

Also, Vorg appears to have done what I would have suggested to easily fix a precise receive location in TVFool: use the "Start Maps" option to get close, then drag the receive point marker to the right location. No need to look up coordinates.

2009-09-06, 08:17 PM	#410
Vorg Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 71	I think the lat/long where correct, but here is a new one zoomed into our roof: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8ecd5400b6abb0 Looks about the same. Keep in mind also that the broadcasters around here don't really seem to know what they are doing. When 58 was 58, it was the worst signal, even with a big yagi or what ever it's called, about 4' long, the picture was still snowy. And even after the transition, for a couple days, switing to 58.1 got you 58.2, a spanish channel because they messed up the PID data. and it wasn't until about a month ago that they figured out how to send EPG data. The other stations are a bit better with PBS 6.x/27.x doing the best. It seems to me that the locations are far enough apart that if the antennas are directional enough, combining antennas shouldn't interfere with each other as each would only be picking up what it was aimed at. The main problem with be the loss of the combiner. and with enough gain, that should be over come. I am still wondeirg about the element size. Just testing with a square loop, between #14 and 1/2" pipe, I didn't see much differnce in gain. though the SWR seemed lower with the low point shifted up. Is that the main advantage? Forgot to mention, I am on a bit of a hill and there are no tall buildings near by. couple trees, not very dence. Last edited by Vorg; 2009-09-06 at 08:34 PM.

2009-09-07, 04:18 PM	#416
300ohm Veteran Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Somewhere in Delaware on the flat side Posts: 7,008	Wildwillie, pretty good job of distorting the pattern with the slant reflectors. I kind of wondered what they would look like. What a general mess, heh. Keep it up ! Unusual and weird is always good. __________________ My builds/plans (not the latest models) are located here.

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2009-09-06, 02:55 PM	#408
holl_ands Veteran Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,595	That still shows The CW at strong, just under overload levels (presuming they really are at 1000 kW ERP)/. All too frequently, the address to LAT/LONG look-up sites can be way off, due to database deficiencies.... Now try pin-pointing your house in GoogleEarth and enter THOSE coordinates (+/- 100-ft). You might have to go into TOOLS/Options to change to Decimal Degrees. TVFool results will either round off LAT/LONG to only two decimal points (for privacy) or only displays the dB entry number. Also let us know if you have any nearby hills or if nearby buildings are taller than yours.

2009-09-07, 10:33 AM	#413
holl_ands Veteran Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,595	Vorg: Your are correct, small diameter wires (e.g. AWG14) cause a noticeable loss in Net Gain, but Raw Gain for AWG14 won't be all that different than 1/2-in pipe at either UHF or Hi-VHF. I wouldn't worry too much about SWR until it gets above about 2-3...after all the OTHER components (e.g. Preamp, Tuner, Splitter, et. al.) might be even higher.... But here you'll see that SWR is becoming quite large for AWG12 in a UHF Circular Loop. http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/uhfcircular Square Loop won't be that much different.... Which (again) brings up the point....who cares about SWR???? You should if you have more than a couple dozen feet of coax, cuz the reflections not only cause nulls on the line for certain channels, but these reflections ALSO look like small delay multipath....which the ATSC equalizers don't like.... A Preamp located close to the antenna avoids a lot of these problems. PS: I found a circular loop made from 1/4" or "3/8" (1/2" O.D.) refrigerator tubing was a lot easier to build than brazing together some 1/2" copper pipe....

2009-09-08, 04:30 PM	#419
holl_ands Veteran Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,595	Ken Nist has not analyzed the new CM4221HD....and although he analyzed the CM4228HD, he has not (yet) posted the NEC file. I have been unable to locate either NEC files, detailed measurements, and/or photos (with a RULER) for either the CM4221HD or CM4228HD. Anyone out there with detailed dimensions on CM4221HD and CM4228HD????

2009-09-09, 10:37 AM	#420
Dave Loudin Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: King George, VA Posts: 358	300ohm, are you sure the 30 was from near NYC? There's a pair of independent public stations from the northern VA area that team up to have 10 subchannels on 30. RF 24 carries 30-1 to 30-5 and RF 30 carries 30-6 to 30-10. Also, Vorg appears to have done what I would have suggested to easily fix a precise receive location in TVFool: use the "Start Maps" option to get close, then drag the receive point marker to the right location. No need to look up coordinates.