Rogers is now compressing some HD channels.

[Jase88]

Classof83, most staff that answer email, calls, etc., have little understanding of the technical aspects of the network. Therefore I wouldn't call it a lie so much as ignorance of the facts.

[57]

I have not checked the channels in a couple of years, however, in post 1 the "OTA-type" Buffalo channels were not compressed by Rogers and I don't believe that has changed, although it's more difficult to track now without the old HDD info. Check out post 1 for channel compression.

Differences in PQ can be due to many factors as discussed in this forum -

STB
TV input calibration (or lack thereof)
Connection type
Format selected in STB
Encoding by Service Provider
Etc.

[Classof83]

Well, I realize you cannot know everything, but if you are sending out responses to your customers, you better make certain of things by asking internally and then sending out the correct information after it is reviewed by your superiors.

FWIW, I was watching the raw NBC mux and the Rogers NBC feed on the same TV input... I just chose a different HDMI input on my receiver. The Rogers artifacts were really noticeable on fast moving sequences during the game, which is where it would most likely occur.

[57]

raw NBC mux

What does this mean? 50 Mbps FTA or the ~17 Mbps OTA feed from Buffalo?

Sometimes also a different format can make a difference. For example, Bell Sat customers often say they notice less macroblocking/artifacts and this is actually due to the downrez to 720P by BTV, which makes the picture softer, but less "artifacty"

[Classof83]

It's the feed on AMC1 at 103 degrees, using a skewed LNB. I think the bitrate is between 30 - 35 Mbps. Much sharper and clearer than Rogers for sure.

[57]

That's an unfair comparison. If you've got OTA, then that may be a fair comparison if all else is equal, which it often is not.

[Classof83]

Yeah, it may not be the fairest of comparisons, but I still don't like how Rogers lied to me, or at least told me the wrong information. This after I insisted that they compress their signals, even telling them the bitrates mentioned on this site for various channels before and after they started doing so.

[57]

Since we can now again see the drive space in the diagnostics, I decided to check on the bitrates of some channels. I recorded 3 hours of HD on the following channels and calculated the following bitrates based on the GB used on my HDDs. (check space on both drives - delete programme - check space again - subtract on appropriate drive)

Channel / Bitrate (mbps)

497 - Animal - 15

498 - Sci - 14

501 - SN1 - 15

506 - TSN - 19

514 - CBC - 16

525 - PBS - 10

528 - CBSW - 12

532 - PBSW - 14

534 - DW - 14

535 - NG - 12

550 - TMN - 14

563 - TCM - 10

574 - Discovery - 15

583 - CityW - 15

586 - TWN - 11

Please feel free to do some more channels - 3 hours typically uses about 20 GB, which equates to about 15 mbps. The rounding error is less than 1 mbps.

When Rogers uses 2 channels per QAM, then the maximum bitrate per channel would be 19.4 mbps (based on 38.8 mbps/QAM256). This is the same as the ATSC (broadcast) maximum. At 3 channels per QAM, Rogers can put any three channels up to almost 39 mbps, so 14 + 14 + 11 say... These numbers seem to compare well with post 1 of this thread. I'm not sure if they do this (rate shaping), or assign a maximum 13 mbps/ch at 3 ch/QAM.

In many of the above tests, I was recording something anyway and simply extended the recording to 3 hours, if it didn't interfere with another recording.

[snorlax]

Thanks for update 57. We need to keep the quality issue front and centre. Unless I am watching a Blu-Ray disc or some other HD content that I have downloaded, I am getting the distinct impression that my HD cable feed is not up to the same standards as it used to be. There is a "softness" for lack of a better term, that is spreading from channel to channel. I no longer see the crisp and sparkling images I used to see when I turned on my new HD set a couple of years ago. I know my vision is deteriorating but that's from age not reduced bitrates!

[ExDilbert]

I a not sure if this is true of Rogers but bit rates can vary with the source material. A widescreen program, for example, might have a reduced bitrate and will look soft compared to HD. It's also well known that OTA stations with subchannels have reduced bit rates. Many PBS stations have 2 or 3 subchannels, which will reduce the bit rate of the signal significantly. Many US network OTA stations have subchannels as well. As for specialty channels, who knows what the are providing to Rogers or what the resolution of their source material is? It may not be a Rogers issue at all.

[nfitz]

Originally Posted by ExDilbert

Many PBS stations have 2 or 3 subchannels, which will reduce the bit rate of the signal significantly. Many US network OTA stations have subchannels as well. As for specialty channels, who knows what the are providing to Rogers or what the resolution of their source material is? It may not be a Rogers issue at all.

Heck, most US OTA channels have subchannels.

I'd be curious how Rogers SN1, Rogers SN Ontario and Rogers SN World compare. World always seems to have a lower bitrate based on what I see on the screen ... though perhaps it's improved recently ... was always kind of odd given it's a Rogers channel.

[Wayne]

With SN World there are a couple of issues that you don't have with traditional North Americn based broadcasters: (1) What format are you getting from the broadcaster in England, New Zealand, South Africa, etc - is the broadcast originally even in the ATSC HD formats, and (2) how much satellite bitrate has been purchased to get the signal to Rogers and is the signal being decompressed to fit into the satellite bitrate limitations.

For some of the content I have watched on SN World(especially rugby games from the Southern Hemisphere) it sure doesn't look like it is a 1080i feed even though my STB shows 1080i.

[nfitz]

Originally Posted by Wayne

With SN World there are a couple of issues that you don't have with traditional North Americn based broadcasters: (1) What format are you getting from the broadcaster in England, New Zealand, South Africa, etc - is the broadcast originally even in the ATSC HD formats, and (2) how much satellite bitrate has been purchased to get the signal to Rogers and is the signal being decompressed to fit into the satellite bitrate limitations.

1) Why would the format and bitrate from the broadcaster for SN World be lower than the same game broadcast a couple of hours earlier on SN1?

2) Why would satellite be involved to get the signal from Rogers in Toronto, to the cable head end for Rogers in Toronto? (with 10 SN World channels on Rogers Cable, and only 2 available anywhere else, I'm not sure most of these channels would ever be on satellite).

Now that being said ... I haven't noticed as much indication from the picture of their being as much compression in the last few months, and I'm wondering if something has changed.

[Wayne]

1)It wasn't clear that you were comparing the bitrate on SN world to the same content on other SN channels. Most of the content on SN world is not seen on other SN channels which is why they charge so much for the channel.

2) I am talking about the content coming on satellite from New Zealand or South Africa (in the case of S15 rugby) or soccer coming from Europe.

[snorlax]

Rogers has fibre from London, England to Toronto. They used to use satellite but with the change from Setanta to SN World they went with fibre. The quality does vary however. Sometimes the host broadcaster makes a 1080/50 feed (Euro standard HD) available, sometime only an anamorphic SD (either PAL or NTSC) feed. Feeds from Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and India are routed through London. How those feeds get to London varies, sometimes via fibre sometimes satellite. World takes what they are given and converts it to 1080/60 for distribution here. World, One and the other SN channels get their feed using the same path and play out using the same servers. The quality is the same for all channels. Most regions outside the greater Toronto area get their feeds via Canadian domestic satellite operated by Shaw at 1080i. Bell TV (both satellite and Fibe) downconvert to 720p for distribution. Shaw, Telus and Bell get their HD feeds from Rogers via a landline network at 1080i.