Rogers is now compressing some HD channels. - Page 2 - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums
 

Go Back   Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums > Canadian Internet, Phone, TV and Wireless Service Providers > Rogers Communications > Rogers Cable TV

Digital Home Helpful Information

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

Old 2009-04-01, 10:19 AM   #16
99gecko
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,571
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hugh View Post
Having said that, this should be something that can be tested by comparing the bitrates of U.S Channel OTA vs. Rogers.
To see the bit rates of the U.S. channels OTA, that data is available at http://rabbitears.info/market.php
For example for the Buffalo stations, click on Buffalo (DMA 46), select the station, and then click on [Technical Data and Screenshots].
This is the total OTA stream with the multiplex broken down. Remember to add the video bit rate and the audio bit rate. You can then compare to Rogers
99gecko is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 2009-04-01, 10:27 AM   #17
Classof83
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 914
Default

So why doesn't Rogers take all the profits and invest in upgrades to their facilites, so they can send out more channels without as much compression?
Classof83 is offline  
Old 2009-04-01, 10:31 AM   #18
57
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Toronto, Rogers, 9865 & 8300-eHDD, Panasonic TCP65S1, Denon AVR4310Ci; Sony KDL40W3000, 8300-eHDD
Posts: 52,524
Default

Thanks 99gecko for the link - Data for some of the low (Rogers) bitrate stations based on your link and my calculations.

Channel - Bitrate OTA - Bitrate Rogers

WNED (PBS Buffalo) - 13 - 10

King (NBC Seattle) - 16 - 10

Kiro (CBS Seattle) - 14 - 10

KCPQ (Fox Seattle/Tacoma) - 15 - 13

People can do more comparisons for themselves if they wish...
__________________
57's Optimization Services (Home Theatre Optimization) . . . . 57's Home Theatre (Latest equipment & photos)
57 is offline  
Old 2009-04-01, 10:50 AM   #19
57
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Toronto, Rogers, 9865 & 8300-eHDD, Panasonic TCP65S1, Denon AVR4310Ci; Sony KDL40W3000, 8300-eHDD
Posts: 52,524
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Classof83 View Post
So why doesn't Rogers take all the profits and invest in upgrades to their facilities, so they can send out more channels without as much compression?
Rogers has invested billions of $ in infrastructure and technology, however, there is always a balance between certain factors:

- spending more $
- Picture Quality - especially when it's "good enough". (this comment relates to the fact that there were few complaints on this forum regarding HD PQ)
- more channels on TV - channels are always being added
- more services like VOD, PPV, etc (which make a lot of money)
- SDV
- Etc.
__________________
57's Optimization Services (Home Theatre Optimization) . . . . 57's Home Theatre (Latest equipment & photos)
57 is offline  
Old 2009-04-01, 10:57 AM   #20
hugh
Member #1
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 47,716
Default

Ultimately, if 99% of the population is happy with the PQ then its a smart business move by Rogers because it allows them to cut costs which can be used to either keep prices down or increase profits or a combination of both.
__________________
As of January 2012, I am no longer the owner of the Digital Home website. My comments and opinions are my own and not those of the current site owners.
I have disabled private messaging so for personal inquiries contact me at the Hugh Thompson website or via twitter.
hugh is offline  
Old 2009-04-01, 04:06 PM   #21
actng
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Scarborough; Rogers SA4250HD, Samsung LNT4061, Samsung R160, Samsung HT-TX75 (blew up) -> HT-TWZ515
Posts: 191
Default

wow i'm surprised that RaptorsTV is at 16.
because it ALWAYS pixelates, even during commercials.

whereas CBC is at 12 and there were NO pixels during the sunday games.
actng is offline  
Old 2009-04-01, 04:07 PM   #22
57
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Toronto, Rogers, 9865 & 8300-eHDD, Panasonic TCP65S1, Denon AVR4310Ci; Sony KDL40W3000, 8300-eHDD
Posts: 52,524
Default

CBC is at 17. The appropriate term for the compression artifact you mention is macroblocking.
__________________
57's Optimization Services (Home Theatre Optimization) . . . . 57's Home Theatre (Latest equipment & photos)
57 is offline  
Old 2009-04-01, 04:16 PM   #23
actng
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Scarborough; Rogers SA4250HD, Samsung LNT4061, Samsung R160, Samsung HT-TX75 (blew up) -> HT-TWZ515
Posts: 191
Default

oops you're right - i can't read

so that 1Mbps makes the huge difference?!

can rogers dynamically change the speeds of the channels?
actng is offline  
Old 2009-04-01, 04:26 PM   #24
57
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Toronto, Rogers, 9865 & 8300-eHDD, Panasonic TCP65S1, Denon AVR4310Ci; Sony KDL40W3000, 8300-eHDD
Posts: 52,524
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by actng View Post
can rogers dynamically change the speeds of the channels?
Please read post 3 on stat muxing. I believe it's dynamic and software controlled - hence the "pretty good" image quality, as bandwidth is assigned to the programme, or segment of a programme, requiring the most bandwidth.

As I also mentioned in post 1, my calculations are a "snapshot in time" representing the bitrate over the 5 hours that I recorded. For example, PBS may have been airing an interview, with mostly static images, therefore the software would assign less bandwidth to that particular programme than say a sports programme with lots of movement.

If people would post their results, we could see if there are significant changes in time/programme. One also needs to be aware of when a simsub is occurring since that would impact the bitrate and reflect the Canadian and not the US channel. I performed all my recordings off prime-time, so there were no simsubs in my recordings.
__________________
57's Optimization Services (Home Theatre Optimization) . . . . 57's Home Theatre (Latest equipment & photos)
57 is offline  
Old 2009-04-03, 08:11 AM   #25
idrive
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Gatineau, Québec - Videotron
Posts: 146
Default

I found THIS for the Vidéotron Gatineau region side of things (sorry French only).

Looks like Kaphyr keeps thing updated pretty good.

He uses a formula to figure out the video bitrate, I would like to get your take on it.

He uses the File Systems section (from page 18) of the diagnostic information pages of his Scientific Atlanta PVR.



He uses the Free Space column (in clusters of 2350 Kb each) before and after a recording to calculate the bitrate.

Here's the translated formula:

((Free Space difference) * 18.61) / (time in seconds)) - (Audio Bitrate in Mbps)

For example, a difference of 345 clusters for one half our show taped with an Audio Bitrate of 192 Kbps:

((345)*18.61) / (1800)) - 0.192 = 3.375 Mbps

The 18.61 conversion factor in the formula has been calculated over multiple trials with known values.

Click HERE for the original text.

The hardest part would be figuring the Audio Bitrate. He uses his SoundBlaster card with KX drivers and PowerDVD !

I take absolutely no credit for all this, it's all from THIS site.
__________________
Sharp LC-70LE640U /Yamaha RX-V373 / Explorer 8642HD / PS3 Fat upgraded to 320 Gb
idrive is offline  
Old 2009-04-03, 02:15 PM   #26
bobbob
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 96
Default

Thanks for the info. Can you confirm if TMN/HBO are two of the channels that are being compressed? In my opinion since these are premium channels they should be the last channels to suffer compression. Shame on rogers if its true....
bobbob is offline  
Old 2009-04-03, 02:16 PM   #27
57
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Toronto, Rogers, 9865 & 8300-eHDD, Panasonic TCP65S1, Denon AVR4310Ci; Sony KDL40W3000, 8300-eHDD
Posts: 52,524
Default

As stated previously in this thread, the Astral channels (TMN, HBO, MPix) are (currently) being compressed (Post 15 and the data in post 1)

Edit - I've modified post 1 to add OTA data and to add some colour where signals are known to be compressed, or not compressed.
__________________
57's Optimization Services (Home Theatre Optimization) . . . . 57's Home Theatre (Latest equipment & photos)
57 is offline  
Old 2009-04-03, 03:03 PM   #28
technut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Victoria, BC (on Shaw TV & Internet, Telus home phone, Bell mobile)
Posts: 1,767
Default

This certainly brings back memories of outrage at Shaw and their (still) over-compressed HD signals. We get many additional artifacts. It sounds like Rogers isn't that bad... yet.

About a year ago I was pursuing it with the CRTC but they showed little interest in helping me with the issue, despite the fact they have regulations stating that the distributors (eg. Rogers) must carry the full signal as provided to them by the broadcasters.

Back then I had hoped some Rogers customers would complain to the CRTC too, since that was when it was first thought that Rogers would start compression. But Rogers held off, until now.

So now that you're getting compromised signals, maybe if some of you Rogers customers contact the CRTC then they will finally pay attention to this issue?

See this thread for background and tips:
HDTV must not be degraded: CRTC

Here's hoping!
__________________
Mike / technut
technut is offline  
Old 2009-07-03, 12:10 PM   #29
kentpowley
Rookie
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Posts: 8
Default How does this compression compare to Bell HD ?

Other than OTA, does anyone have a comparison to the bit rate and/or compression of the same channels via Bell ?

I have been noticing more and more that my beautiful Pioneer Elite 151FD can't make the Rogers HD pictures look any better if Rogers is compressing the feed !!!
When there is no motion whatsoever, it looks good - but as soon as there is motion, it breaks up (macroblocking) pretty bad.
You'd expect this on the SD stations (with the SD box) - but not on the HD channels. It is quite shameful.

Speaking of macroblocking on SD - has anyone tried to watch a movie on Spike or other networks - in SD lately ? The picture quality is TERRIBLE - almost unwatchable - almost like looking at internet video from 15 years ago !

There must be some way to collectively speak up and get Rogers to do the right thing.
kentpowley is offline  
Old 2009-07-03, 12:41 PM   #30
boink
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 159
Default

I watched starwars on spike the other day, actually looked pretty good for a 30yr old movie


and I think the problem people will run into when it comes to the crtc ruling is that it pretty much just states the picture quality must be the same, so they can compress it all they want as long as it does not affect the picture quality. and as long as carriers can prove that it is that same quality for the most part, and the people experiencing degredation are isolated incidents that can be resolved, there will be little a lawsuit can do.

just my 2 cents anyway, no lawyer here
boink is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:58 PM.

Search Digital Home

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.