Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums banner

Effects on Canadian digital OTA of analog shutdown

24K views 100 replies 37 participants last post by  tvlurker 
#1 ·
Just proposing this as new thread since even though the US analog shutdown is 2 yrs away there seems (to me anyways) more discussion about it on US forums these days.
The links I have included below could have gone in several other existing threads, but none of them deal specifically with this topic. All existing info on DHC has been hijacked into threads dealing with something else.

My position has been that if we are to assume Canada will eventually follow the US lead in shutting down analog transmissions, we should follow the progression in the US closely, so as minimize/eliminate any potential negative impact here in Canada.

So to start for people to new to this topic, a little primer:
from wikipedia.org:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-definition_television_in_the_United_States
Analog shutoff process

Because HDTV requires extra broadcast spectrum during the transition period, it had become a topic of political controversy in the United States. Current stations have received a free channel, usually in the UHF range, on which to broadcast their digital signal, while still maintaining analog service.

According to the original FCC rules, all full power stations were to convert to digital by the beginning of 2007, followed by shutdown of analog broadcasting. An escape clause stipulated that 85% of receivers in the service area must be "capable" of receiving digital signals before the shutdown could occur. At the time of analog shutoff, one of the channels (digital or analog) would then be returned to the government, with the other channel remaining as a digital station; the freed spectrum could then be used for other TV stations, with UHF channels at the high end of the band being decommissioned and sold for other uses. The 2007 deadline could not be satisfied under many interpretations of 85% "capability" of digital signal reception.

On February 8th, 2006, President Bush signed into law the "Digital Television Transition and Public Safety Act of 2005", a section of the "Deficit Reduction Act of 2005." This law mandated a hard shut-off date of February 17, 2009 for the end of all analog (NTSC) TV transmissions in the U.S., thus ending this uncertainty. The act also provided for the auctioning off of the frequencies associated with UHF channels 52 to 69, and set aside $990 million for a voucher program enabling low-income households to purchase converter boxes.
And the state of the matter as it stands in April 2007:
from broadcastengineering.com

http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv/knowledge-dtv-transition-low-yager-0403/
Knowledge of DTV transition low, more education needed, Yager says

Jim Yager, CEO of Barrington Broadcasting and NAB Television Board member, underscored the sizable task of informing the public about DTV transition March 28, telling the House Telecommunications Subcommittee that only 40 percent of Americans know the transition is underway and just 1 percent to 3 percent realize it will be completed February 2009.
 
See less See more
#2 ·
There are a lot of other threads on DHC responding in various ways to the question of how the U.S. experience may affect Canadian OTA.

I forsee two main results:
  • "Me too" program for subsidized digital STB, but it will fail
  • Continued OTA complacency by broadcasters

Once the U.S. digital receiver subsidy kicks in, and people start seeing the result, there may be pressure in Canada to duplicate this. It will likely fail because of few potential takers --- most TV viewers are urban and already cable subscribers. Those with satellite receivers already do not care about OTA.

There is no major incentive (legal, policy or financial) to support OTA. CBC does it because they can; CTV did it because they compete with CBC technically and politically. Global doesn't because they do not perceive a need.

If the bandwidth demand in Canada heated up dramatically, and the folks at Industry Canada actually noticed, and the potential revenue was credibly understood, and (insert more political/economic roadblocks here) then IC might push for fully digital TV in Canada. Not before I retire I'm sure!

The history of digital mobile phone spectrum auctions in Canada (what was it called, PSM or something) is a hint. Several successful bidders defaulted on their payments (Clearnet for one) and got picked up for cheap while in receivership by the current incumbents. The government got little of what was bid, as I recall. The potential for revenue from spectrum auctions is therefore tainted by this history Caveat: I'm not a historian; I might have this somewhat wrong.

The U.S. OTA experience will probably follow the Dutch experience, which was apparantly very quiet. Somebody will point out that only Korean manufacturers seem to be profiting from the subsidy; there will be a massive sales pitch for Christmas '08, there will be localized extensions negotiated by several U.S. senators as riders on agricultural subsidy bills; CBS' 60 Minutes will do a piece; stock prices of antenna makers will spike then crash; by April 2009 everyone will have forgotten about it.

In Canada, if the NDP can find a way, they might politicize it. The potential marginalization of rural viewers (assuming an OTA adoption is urban only) might be significant: if rural Saskatchewan can demand it and simultaneously link it to wheat subsidies it might fly. But as a political hockey puck OTA is too complicated and therefore not attractive to Canadian politicos.

The real issue for Canada is that the U.S. has actually had a forward-thinking strategy for the last 15 years regarding HDTV and OTA. Canada has had nothing other than "me too". If the U.S. OTA conversion brings this into clearer focus, that will be good.
 
#3 ·
If the bandwidth demand in Canada heated up dramatically, and the folks at Industry Canada actually noticed, and the potential revenue was credibly understood, and (insert more political/economic roadblocks here) then IC might push for fully digital TV in Canada. Not before I retire I'm sure!
First of all; the US decision to go digital was not the result of "Intelligent Design";) Bandwidth scarcity was the major driver. The US switch to ATSC frees up channels 52..69 (and 2..6 not sure??). In Canada, the usurious rates charged by cellphone companies have throttled demand for additional spectrum. So there is no bandwidth shortage that would cause the government to...
  1. try to scrounge a couple of hundred mhz of additional bandwidth
  2. believe that it could generate major revenue by auctioning off the additional bandwidth
In other words, the factors that drove the US government to push digital in the US don't exist in Canada. In Canada, the major effect of the US DTV switchover will be
  • competition perceived by OTA broadcasters in Canada in border cities. I.e. if people in the GTA start putting up rooftop antennas in droves to get Buffalo, and Global's OTA ratings plummet, this might be a wake-up call.
  • the possible reaction by Rogers and other cablecos (and possibly the CRTC) with regard to "analogue basic" and US OTA broadcasts.
    1. the cablecos take the American DTV signals, pan/scan them and translate the result to NTSC signals in the "analogue basic" tier. Net result would be no change.
    2. the cablecos take the American DTV signals, pan/scan them and put them in the digital tier. Customers would have to "upgrade" their basic subscriptions to the digital tier. Net result would be minor, possibly pushing a small number of basic subscribers to leave cable for OTA, or possibly cheaper satellite service.
    3. the cablecos will say "Gosh darn, golly gee willikers. Sorry folks. Them damn Yankees have gone all-HDTV. If you want to watch them, you'll have to rent an HDTV terminal (ka-ching), plus pay a monthly "digital access fee" (ka-ching}. There is the possibility of a major loss of analog-tier customers to OTA/satellite.
Barring direct orders from the CRTC imposing option 1), I expect Rogers will do 2) or 3) to convert analogue basic customers to digital or, failing that, lose them altogether. Analogue basic probably has the lowest ARPU. And if Rogers' percentage of digital customers hits the magic mark that allows them to drop analog entirely, there'll be dancing in Rogers' boardrooms. A lot also depends on who's in power in Ottawa. A Conservative government will probably let things slide ("market driven approach"). What really scares me is the possibility of a minority Liberal government backed by the NDP in power in February 2009. I wouldn't be surprised to see at least some "OTA licence fees", or possibly a push to ban OTA reception outright.
 
#4 ·
Better Reception

The direct effect of the US shutdown of analog will be better reception along the border.

Half as many US signals means less interference, plus...

Analog is broadcast at higher power than digital (for same coverage). So today when interference occurs between an analog and digital station, analog "beats up" the digital signal pretty bad.

In areas along the border where the spectrum is crowded, such as the Golden Horseshoe, the end of US analog should yield noticeable improvement in reception on some channels.
 
#7 ·
In areas along the border where the spectrum is crowded, such as the Golden Horseshoe, the end of US analog should yield noticeable improvement in reception on some channels.
Another effect is opening up room for DTV stations currently above 51. In the Toronto area they include...
  • CKXT - currently broadcasting on 66
  • CIII - Global (giggle) currently allocated 65
  • CFMT - OMNI 1 currently allocated 64
  • CITY - currently broadcasting on 53
They will obviously need to be relocated eventually. Global may solve its problem by simply never broadcasting on 65.
 
#5 ·
better reception is exactly what i'm waiting for.

I've been saying, since i joined this forum maybe 18 months ago, that the effect of US, (FCC) policy always has and always will govern canadian policy.
Canada always has and always will follow-the-leader.

Yup, the CRTC & indusry canada will study, pretend to listen to the public, pretend to make thier own decisions and then do exactly as the US does. Since we share a very long border, and most canadians live with reception distance of that border, it just dosen't make sense to do anything different.
We tried to lead once, with DAB. Failed. So, we followed along with Sat Radio, just like trained dogs....

My best guess was Canadian analog shutdown in major markets in 2011. It'll be announced on or about Feb. 17, 09. lol
With all the postulating, maybe it'll go a few more years, but by then, the marketplace will have followed the US, so it won't matter anyway.
 
#6 ·
What I am waiting for is the pile of small to medium sized US cities along the border that do not have any OTA getting OTA.

Here in Fredericton, the closest city is Bangor but the closest town is Calais (It is technically a city but a VERY small one.) and it is likely that even if Calais lives off of the OTA signal from Bangor, we in Fredericton stand a reasonable chance of getting some reception.

Now if Calais were to erect OTA broadcast equipment, well then, Fredericton would be a no brainer and most of NB west would be sitting pretty!!!
 
#9 ·
The Toronto digital stations should not be allowed to use any of the USA analog frequencies at shutdown for 3 reasons.First our CRTC blocked several US stations from returning to their analog frequency from Buffalo 29,49.Second since we will have our own shutdown someday Global ,Omni 1 should return to their original analog frequency.Thirdly has the CRTC said they must vacate above 51.Why follow this if we are not following shutdown of analog and we are allocating some lower freq for internet in remote areas.
 
#10 · (Edited by Moderator)
The Toronto digital stations should not be allowed to use any of the USA analog frequencies at shutdown for 3 reasons.First our CRTC blocked several US stations from returning to their analog frequency from Buffalo 29,49.
Sounds weird. I could understand Canada grabbing a frequency first, but what weird treaty would allow Canada to kick the US off frequencies that it has been using for years and years?

And if I were WUTV. I'd be happy to have my (mid-channel) frequency dropping from 563 mhz to 473 mhz. Ditto for WNYO, going from 683 to 593. You can get the same coverage area for less power, and energy costs are going up. I was expecting a land-rush into VHF-HI (channels 7..13).

Thirdly has the CRTC said they must vacate above 51.
I expect they will, one of these days.
 
#12 ·
First our CRTC blocked several US stations from returning to their analog frequency from Buffalo 29,49.
While I can understand their interim DTV channels (34 and 14) being limited if already used in Canada, how can you claim that Canada blocked their use of channels 49 and 29 after Feb, 2009 after they've been using them in analog mode all these years???
 
#13 · (Edited)
WUTV,WNYO

Our Canadian regulators did not approve their application for returning to their original frequecies.Yes approval is required within the border area.They stated interference problems with cjoh-dt repeater station near Belleville and others.
 
#15 ·
Walter Dnes said:
The US switch to ATSC frees up channels 52..69 (and 2..6 not sure??).
The one thing I don't understand is how the US can use these frequencies in border areas when Canada will still have OTA television on these frequencies. How is upstate NY going to use the frequency of UHF channel 57 when CITY-TV is broadcasting on this frequency just across Lake Ontario and will continue to do so for years?
 
#23 ·
I don't know if this is the correct thread for this, but I read the following on HDTV Primer. It will be interesting to see what happens to channels 2-6. One idea would be to save them for rural LPTV stations (and repeaters) that don't want to transition to digital in 2009. By having them in a separate band they won't interfere with the digital broadcasts. A short grace period could be given to allow them time to try and acquire a used antenna, etc. from a station that has shutdown.

Late news: TV stations are currently in the process of choosing their permanent frequency. They seem to be fleeing channels 2-6 like rats from a burning ship. The official FCC word is that these channels are part of the permanent TV “core channels”. But if broadcasters persist, don’t be surprised if the FCC changes its mind again on this issue.

The second round of DTV channel elections is complete. The results are at DTV Tentative Channel Designations. There you will find a list of stations for your city and their probable permanent channel numbers after 2009. Channels 52-69 will be vacated on February 17, 2009 and reallocated to other uses.
 
#24 ·
I don't know if this is the correct thread for this, but I read the following on HDTV Primer.
> Late news: TV stations are currently in the process of choosing
> their permanent frequency. They seem to be fleeing channels
> 2-6 like rats from a burning ship. The official FCC word is that
> these channels are part of the permanent TV “core channels”.
> But if broadcasters persist, don’t be surprised if the FCC
> changes its mind again on this issue.

It will be interesting to see what happens to channels 2-6. One idea would be to save them for rural LPTV stations (and repeaters) that don't want to transition to digital in 2009. By having them in a separate band they won't interfere with the digital broadcasts. A short grace period could be given to allow them time to try and acquire a used antenna, etc. from a station that has shutdown.
The problem is that low-band VHF travels too far for its own good, and you get interference from really distant stations on bad days. A personal anecdote follows. Very early on in my career with Environment Canada, I was a weather observer at various isolated postings. Back in 1977, automated weather stations weren't up to today's standards, so people had to observe the weather and report via radio. One such location was Estevan Point, halfway up the west coast of Vancouver Island (big URL follows http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/engli...3_feature_points=-2194789.12783+598369.861834 ).

Our connection with civilization was VHF radio. Halfway up the radio tower, someone had mounted a TV antenna with an amp. The idea was to receive a couple of 10 watt repeaters that provided CBC and CTV reception for lighthouses in the area. I had been into shortwave listening as a kid, and took along a multi-band AM-FM-shortwave radio to keep me from getting too bored at isolated postings. I usually listened to shortwave during the day, and AM at night. The radio had a 300-ohm connecter. I hooked it up to the TV connection, and tried FM. First thing I heard was a Toyota commercial. It sounded OK, but I almost missed the fact that "this message was brought to you by Colorado Import Motors". Talk about doing a double-take, when it finally dawned on me.

The summer of 1977, I was able to listen to FM stations from Washington State, Oregon, and California as well as occasional real freakish skip. When I bragged about picking up KFMI, Redwood California, I found out that the lighthouse keeper was picking up KFMI TV channel 6. The weird skip kept going all spring summer long, and stopped only with the arrival of autumn.

Stuff like that is great for hobbyist DX'ers, but it causes interference problems for low-band VHF TV stations. That's why stations are seizing the opportunity to bail out.
 
#25 ·
Also 2 to 6 transmitting digital will drop out whenever there is a lightning strike within 100km.Any electrical noises that cause some static on analog reception are causing complete drop outs with digital 2 to 6 channels OTA.
 
#27 ·
Walter Dnes said:
The problem is that low-band VHF travels too far for its own good, and you get interference from really distant stations on bad days.
Would this be a problem if all the stations in the US and Canada on VHF-LO were very low power?

rob50312 said:
Also 2 to 6 transmitting digital will drop out whenever there is a lightning strike within 100km.Any electrical noises that cause some static on analog reception are causing complete drop outs with digital 2 to 6 channels OTA.
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I was suggesting using VHF-LO for rural analog LPTV stations. Since the CRTC will allow "northern and remote" stations to apply for an exception for the analog shutdown this shouldn't be necessary.

Another option if the US should decide to not use VHF-LO for digital stations is to use the excellent propagation of VHF-LO and give each channel to only one station in North America and allow them to transmit in analog at a very high power from a remote location in an attempt to cover a large portion of the continent. If the CBC were to build a massive tower in Northern Saskatchewan, and transmitted at say 1 or 2 MW on channel 3, would it cover most of Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, NWT and Nunavut? If so, they could then shut down a whole bunch of repeaters.
 
#28 ·
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I was suggesting using VHF-LO for rural analog LPTV stations. Since the CRTC will allow "northern and remote" stations to apply for an exception for the analog shutdown this shouldn't be necessary.
There's plenty of frequency space in really remote areas. VHF-low has somewhat more range than VHF-high, but is more susceptable to engine/electrical noise of various types. Showers in the vicinity can kill low-power VHF-low reception. The other problem is that receiving antennas for VHF-low are HUGE. The CM 4221 is 4" deep x 20" wide x 35" high and works great for UHF reception. For optimal reception of channels 2 and 3 and 4, it would need to be scaled up to 20" deep x 100" wide x 175" high... ouch.
Another option if the US should decide to not use VHF-LO for digital stations is to use the excellent propagation of VHF-LO and give each channel to only one station in North America and allow them to transmit in analog at a very high power from a remote location in an attempt to cover a large portion of the continent. If the CBC were to build a massive tower in Northern Saskatchewan, and transmitted at say 1 or 2 MW on channel 3, would it cover most of Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, NWT and Nunavut? If so, they could then shut down a whole bunch of repeaters.
VHF-low has the worst of both worlds. It has enough occasional freakish skip to generate annoying co-channel interference, but reliable reception is still limited to approx 100 miles. Given the population distribution in mid and far northern Canada, your best bang for the watt would be to put up a 50 watt repeater near every town and large village. The repeaters would presumably get their feeds via satellite.

Even if you're sending SDTV signals, there is an argument to be made for going digital (ATSC). You can send 5 or 6 SDTV signals over 1 ATSC channel. Channel space isn't a problem, but using 1 transmitter instead of 5 or 6 is a cost saving.
 
#30 ·
VHF does not typically interfere with UHF reception. The analog shutdown will dramatically reduce the number of UHF channels in use, reducing the number of duplicated (analog+digital) channels and reducing co-channel interference. Also, some digital stations are using lower power to reduce interference with other channels. The elimination of analog stations will allow relocation of the digital station to a more powerful transmitter.
 
#31 ·
I think I understand. SO all channels on UHF that have Co or Adjacent Channels will Improve Right away at shutdown. Others will have to up there power or move transmitters, at a later time?. Or will these to happen at shut down.

I would use the analaogy that NOW we have a really good deck of shuffled cards. All Cards in the deck. Lots of colors and suits, Messy.

At shut down we we will have just head cards and only of The red suits. The rest will be taken out or gone. Organzized, orderly and predictable.
 
#33 ·
If the US shuts down its analog channels a few years ahead of us and goes and reassigns these frequencies to other uses, won't there be an incompatibilty along the border as we use the frequencies for one thing (analog TV) and they use them for something else?

Sorry if this is a dumb question:D
 
#34 ·
Walter Dnes said:
Given the population distribution in mid and far northern Canada, your best bang for the watt would be to put up a 50 watt repeater near every town and large village. The repeaters would presumably get their feeds via satellite.
Which begs the question - why use OTA transmitters at all? Just put the satellite feed on Ku and make it FTA.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top