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BC - City of Vancouver, North Van, West Van - OTA

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#1 ·
This thread is a one-stop-shopping location for info on receiving Over The Air High Definition and Digital broadcasts only in the cities of Vancouver, North Vancouver, and West Vancouver, as experienced by Digital Home Canada members.

In your posts please specify:

1. Your Location (city, town, locale, on a high rise, in a valley, etc...)
2. Receiver and Antenna Brand/Model
3. Stations Received with their Picture Quality (excellent, pixellated, etc...)
4. Other helpful info...
 
#2 ·
Vancouver/Victoria OTA

The countdown to local OTA in the South Coast area of BC is now centered around CBC DT 58 going live up top of Mount Seymour some time in 2005. No word on CTV, Global, CH, CITY, VI, or others lately.

I've been doing some research and have been getting feedback on a different web forum regarding some of my ideas for U.S. OTA reception in the Vancouver area. Before I begin, bear in mind that some of you are not going to be happy with my findings. :(

Here's a useful map for seeing the layout of the area. An essential tool for figuring out OTA reception potential is AntennaWeb, which unfortunately only provides data for U.S. locations. No problem because you can use the closest Washington zip codes and extrapolate from there.

For Victoria and the southern tip of the island I would use the Port Townsend, WA zip code (98368) and factor in a much weaker signal strength due to the distance being almost double. Bear in mind that its not certain that you might be able to see around the Olympic Mountains towards the SeaTac corridor.

For the Lower Mainland if I was in S. Delta, Richmond, or Vancouver I would enter the Point Roberts, WA zip code (98281). Low lying areas will not do so well, and anyone on the north slope of a hill in Vancouver will probably not have much luck.

For anyone on a south-sloping hill in Burnaby, Coquitlam, PoCo, N. Delta, and Surrey I would use the Blaine, WA (98231) zip code, although Blaine is pretty well just above sea level so you would need to take the extra distance into consideration as a negative, but the extra altitude as a slight positive. Your results may vary. People on north slopes in those places will probably be out of luck.

I suspect that most of New Westminster will likely be in a dead pocket due to the signal shadow of North Delta and North Surrey, but people in the upper suites of the high rises on the southern facing sides might have luck. Likewise I think Maple Ridge, Abbotsford, Langley, all the way east through to Hope would have the same problem with the mountains to the south of them.

I also think lower parts of North and West Vancouver are going to be in a shadow effect from Vancouver and Point Grey but people in high rises above the 10th floor or so may have some luck. I have my doubts about anyone in Gibsons or Sechelt getting strong enough signals.
http://www.digitalhomecanada.com/forum/showpost.php?p=162960&postcount=52
 
#3 ·
CTV Vancouver Live In DT Today

Today CIVT-DT (CTV Vancouver) went live on UHF 33-1, and as I type this at 14:20 PDT they're running the same programming as on their analog station but the audio is in Dolby ProLogic instead of PCM @ 48. The digital signal is strong at times but then cuts out while they tweak it.
 
#4 ·
North Vancouver

Wanted to get a few comments on my specific situation

Live in North Vancouver, about 7 miles from Mt Seymour

With regard to local transmission of CTV and others from Mt Seymour, I unfortunately do not have line of sight to Mt Seymour - I am in the Edgemont Village area, so the crest/ridge separating the Lonsdale area from Lynn Valley blocks the view

Can I hope to get CTV?
I assume these signals cant bend, but can they bounce (off statosphere?, or of signal towers elsewhere?
I know multipathing can occur - how likely I can avail of this reliably?

With regard to signals from the US, my elevation is about 360ft. so the crest of Vancouver City might block signals from the far South e.g. Seattle area - any comments on this, beyond the copmmnets already here on Vancouver being a fringe area, and the fact that N Van is another 8-10 miles further north from places like Delta where Stampeder has made observations. I can tell from one of these mapping programs that the signals would be coming to me over the Killarny Park Joyce Stn area of Vancouver City itself, which has an elevation of about 340 ft

Is there any possibiltiy of the big networks from Seattle having booster towers up towards Bellingham? Is this a legal issue?

Thanks
Jeff
 
#5 ·
North Vancouver

Jeffnoone said:
Is there any possibiltiy of the big networks from Seattle having booster towers up towards Bellingham?
They use small repeaters at very low power levels throughout WA but none that you'd pick up. Repeaters are used by local community groups to fill in dead zones or other places where signals drop off. There are a few to the east of Bellingham but they're tiny and isolated in valleys around the Mount Baker area.

I think those of us in the Lower Mainland are unfortunately at the extreme fringes of SeaTac UHF signal, especially given the amount of sea moisture in the air causing further UHF signal degradation. I'm going to keep trying from where I am in North Delta. Anyway, Global will jump on the DTV bandwagon soon, and CBC is going digital in September. More locals will follow in 2006.

Regarding CTV's signal, I would test for UHF 32 (CTV analog) with a cheap set of VHF/UHF rabbit ears since you're so close to their broadcast antenna. If you get a good signal its probable that you will also get the digital station on 33. If it didn't work out, no big $$$ spent.
 
#7 ·
Vancouver Near UBC

Yes, I`m having some luck. With the 4228 and a Winegard 4800 pre-amp on a rotor I`m getting,

CTV 85%
KBCB 95%
KCTS 50-60%but get dropouts
KVOS 50-60% but get dropouts
KSTW 50-70% but get dropouts
KING 55-85% but get occasional dropouts
KOMO 50-75% but get occasional dropouts
Have not been able to get KCPQ or KIRO.
I have lots of trees in the way, so I`m getting mutipathing. If I can find a 30ft.
ladder I will be able to do a chimmney mount which will get the attenna about
10 ft. higher than it is now, which should give better performance.

I`m located near the UBC area of Vancouver.
 
#9 ·
Vancouver CTV-HD with a cheap loop antenna

Just out of curiosity, I put a cheap old UHF indoor loop antenna on the roof desk vaguely oriented towards the transmitter on Mt Seymour, connected it to my BEV 6100 via a 50 foot length of RG6, and tuned in CIVT-DT channel 33 (CTV HD W). To my suprise, it came in at 75% signal strength and a rock solid picture and sound. I guess I shouldn't be suprised since we have a clear line of sight to the transmitter.

We really don't watch much that we couldn't get from the local stations. I would love to drop satellite/cable go strictly OTA. The money saved would pay for a dozen DVD rentals every month, more than we would ever watch.

I wonder if there is a relatively inconspicuous or at least non-hideous outdoor antenna that the neighbors wouldn't absolutely hate? The satellite dish on the roof deck points southish and can be hidden from the neighbors on our side of a low wall, but a TV antenna would have to be put on top of the wall to point at the transmitter and would be vsible to the neighbors.

Dave
 
#10 ·
Just an update on my reception of the Seattle stations, I think the only reason I was recieving them was because of skip, because I can`t get them any more, not even KVOS.
I`m still getting 90% on CTV and 95% on KBCB from Bellingham.
I`m still going to mount the antenna higher to get more gain, to see if I can pull in the Seattle stations.
 
#11 ·
North Vancouver

mingus said:
Hi All,

I am thinking of buying a new HDTV with a built in digital tuner.
I live on the North Shore in North Vancouver BC.
I was wondering how many HDTV channels I could get with a small antenna.
I am not sure if there is one or two Vancouver stations testing.
I see a list of some USA stations?

This is the TV I am thinking of buying.

"Samsung 30 in. SlimFit™ HDTV with Built-in HD Tuner"

Any comments would be appreciated.
We don't know your elevation in N Van but the higher you are the better.
CIVT-DT(CTV) is currently broadcasting, CBC has said they will be on this September and BCTV is saying next year. These are all short range stations which you should be able to get with a small antenna. If you can see the lights on Seymour Mountain, that's where the transmitters are.

To have a chance of getting the US stations you will need a larger antenna such as the CM4228 and a preamplifier.

Information on Digital channels available in the Pacific Northwest can be found here: http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm
 
#12 ·
North Vancouver

In my situation, the slopes of Grouse Mt block me from Mt Seymour, where I gather most (?all) of the local broadcasters will broadcast from. My elevation is about 400ft - see my post earlier in thread where there is reference to the height of Vancouver City itself

Using the small UHF antenna that comes with the ATI HD Wonder, and the Expressvu 6100 as tuner, I get a very patchy 50-60% on both CTV (Mt Seymour) and same reading on KBCB (not hi-def)
So I get an intermittent picture

I will get a 4228 or equivalent type antenna and I would assume I will get the Mt Seymour broadcasts OK

The posts here to date make me more gloomy re the Seattle HD channels - the North Shore is 120km out, 4DTV is about 100km from downtown Seattle - his unobstructed height and his relative proximity probably make a big difference

If you are high up, I would be interested in seeing your results
 
#713 · (Edited by Moderator)
Near Cleveland Dam

In my situation, the slopes of Grouse Mt block me from Mt Seymour, where I gather most (?all) of the local broadcasters will broadcast from. My elevation is about 400ft - see my post earlier in thread where there is reference to the height of Vancouver City itself
Hello Jeffnoone, I live near Cleveland Dam (at around 250m elevation) and am wondering if you were ever able to receive OTA channels... if so, which ones and what antenna/set-up did you use? Thanks in advance.
 
#13 ·
North Vancouver Antenna Recommendations

Jeffnoone said:
In my situation, the slopes of Grouse Mt block me from Mt Seymour, where I gather most (?all) of the local broadcasters will broadcast from.
...
I will get a 4228 or equivalent type antenna and I would assume I will get the Mt Seymour broadcasts OK
In your case you could even use a 4-bay reflector like a Wade-Delhi 4BT-1483, a Winegard PR4400, or a Channel Master 4221 if your goal is just the Vancouver stations and you don't want an imposing antenna up on your roof. Avoid using a yagi in your situation because of the obstruction (they're for line-of-sight). All of those I listed are bowtie reflectors that will be able to pick up the scattered signal coming from around Grouse. If you're intent on trying for SeaTac the 4228 is a needed first step, but a 4228 would also do just great for the Mt. Seymour signals.
 
#15 ·
No difference at all. The signal meter still shows 9-10 db signal on KING and KIRO, but not enough signal to lock onto. I have a lot of trees in the way. I tried going up the chimmney using a 40 foot ladder but got spooked working up that high. I`m getting the house painted now and the painter said he would install the chimmney mount for me(he has to go up there anyway). This will raise it another 5-10 feet, so I hope it helps.
 
#17 ·
One asian station

Vancouver Fraserview (SE Marine Dr close to Kerr St, north side of the Fraser)

ATI HDTV Wonder with enclosed antenna (Silver Sensor clone I think), no amps.

19.1 KBCB-DT Bellingham 85%
24.1 KBCB-DT Bellingham 85%

Everything else 0%

I just received the ATI HDTV Wonder today, and after minor driver problems it's now all up and running... somewhat. One Asian channel! I r0xx0r!!

Seriously though, what's going on? How come I can get this one channel so well and nothing else? I realise that my position is not very good (appartment not very high up on a slope facing south), but the main reason I wanted to add OTA was for CBC-HD once it starts transmitting. I had of course hoped to be able to pull in a few American networks, but it's all 0%.

Is this normal when they signal is weak, to register 0% instead of say 20%? Is it worth investing in a pre-amp and new indoor antenna?

Shouldn't I be able to get KVOS from Bellingham if I'm getting KBCB? They're both transmitting from the same place and they both have roughly the same HAAT but KVOS's ERP is much stronger.
 
#18 ·
Sarke said:
Vancouver Fraserview (SE Marine Dr close to Kerr St, north side of the Fraser)

ATI HDTV Wonder with enclosed antenna (Silver Sensor clone I think), no amps.

19.1 KBCB-DT Bellingham 85%
24.1 KBCB-DT Bellingham 85%

Everything else 0%

I just received the ATI HDTV Wonder today, and after minor driver problems it's now all up and running... somewhat. One Asian channel! I r0xx0r!!

Seriously though, what's going on? How come I can get this one channel so well and nothing else? I realise that my position is not very good (appartment not very high up on a slope facing south), but the main reason I wanted to add OTA was for CBC-HD once it starts transmitting. I had of course hoped to be able to pull in a few American networks, but it's all 0%.

Is this normal when they signal is weak, to register 0% instead of say 20%? Is it worth investing in a pre-amp and new indoor antenna?

1) Seattle is too far away in most cases unless you are lucky and live on a mountian and have a top of the line on TV antenna on a large tower.
2) There is only one full power DTV broadcaster ins the Vancouver-Bellingham Area KBCB-DT 19 UHF transmiting at 3,000,000 watts (The channel gets asigned a virtual channel number by the reciever to 24.1 to match the real analog channel)
3) CTV is only broadcasting at 300 watts from Mt. Semour, wich in UHF is pathetic. It is CIVT-DT 33 (remapped to 32.1)

If you get an outdoor UHF antenna and mount it outside, sometime attic will work okay, you will likely get both digital channels.

CBC will have an effective radiated power (ERP) of 15,600 watts on channel 58 in September, likely you will recieve this with an indoor antenna.

The KVOS-DT 35 (12.1) won't be full power untill next summer and CHAN-DT 22 (8.1) (global) will only be broadcasting with effective radiated power (ERP) of 4,300 watts when ever they decide to get on the air (next year???).

CKVU-DT (CityTV) has not applied for a licence yet.
 
#19 ·
Thanks for your help sputnik, that is very informative. As long as I can get Hockey Night in Canada in HD I will be happy.

May I ask where you're getting the numbers from? The FCC's website lists KBCB as only 165 kW.

And to clarify, there would be no benefit for me to upgrade my antenna and buy a pre-amp? As I live in an appartment there is no way for me to mount an antenna outside.
 
#20 ·
Sarke said:
Thanks for your help sputnik, that is very informative. As long as I can get Hockey Night in Canada in HD I will be happy.

May I ask where you're getting the numbers from? The FCC's website lists KBCB as only 165 kW.

And to clarify, there would be no benefit for me to upgrade my antenna and buy a pre-amp? As I live in an appartment there is no way for me to mount an antenna outside.

I got the wattage from
http://www.kbcbtv.com/pages/AboutKBCB.html
Although re-reading it the number may be the total of both of their analog and digital transmitters.

A site for info is North West Broadcasters page at
http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/

The Digital TV page is good.
There is one error in that CHEK-DT will not be at 68 but has been reasigned to another channel that I can't remember.

Candian TV channel OTA list
http://home.cogeco.ca/~tvdx/tv-can.htm
 
#21 ·
A pre-amp may help a bit, but don't expect miricals from the amp.

Try different locations in the appartment.

The difficulty with appartments are they usualy use metal and concreat and that kills radio signals. The signals are mainly comming in form the windows. Also all the metal and concreat creates delayed signal reflections (ghosts) that degrade the signal.

I have an cheap outdoor antenna mounted to my ceiling in Nanaimo in a wood frame house (i know it looks ugly but I'm a nerd) and can recieve KBCB-DT and CIVT-DT (I do loose to them both some times during the day due temperature inversions over Georgia Strait) so it may be possible to get the CIVT-DT with some work where you are.

The 4228 (the ultimate outdoor UHF antenna) could be mounted on a wall, just tell people its modern art :) http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html

CBC in september should be strong enought to recieve.
Are you on the Mt. Semour side of your appartment?
 
#22 ·
sputnik said:
1) Seattle is too far away in most cases unless you are lucky and live on a mountian and have a top of the line on TV antenna on a large tower.
Its incorrect to suggest that in most cases only people in extreme situations will get SeaTac signals reliably in the Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island since people have been doing so for decades. Professionals know this and can help anyone who asks with assessments of their site because their instrumentation will tell them so right then and there. Will all sites work? No, of course not, because we are at the deep fringe of TV signal from SeaTac. For that reason, its critical to have the best gear and the best realistic expectations.

Here's what's wrong with blanket assumptions: some people in West Seattle cannot even get KOMO-DT, a Seattle station, yet someone in Aldergrove gets the same station at 100%.

At my very own home with its huge fir and cedar trees I can't get a proper lock on the SeaTac DT stations, yet my LG and BEV tuners show activity on those stations with my antenna on the ground at the side of my house! Look around in the OTA Forum and you'll actually see a photo.

sputnik said:
2) There is only one full power DTV broadcaster ins the Vancouver-Bellingham Area KBCB-DT 19 UHF transmiting at 3,000,000 watts (The channel gets asigned a virtual channel number by the reciever to 24.1 to match the real analog channel)
KBCB-DT is not broadcasting at 3 megawatts, its at 165Kw.
sputnik said:
3) CTV is only broadcasting at 300 watts from Mt. Semour
319, but that's because they duct-taped a flashlight to the hamsterwheel.
sputnik said:
If you get an outdoor UHF antenna and mount it outside, sometime attic will work okay, you will likely get both digital channels.
I have this thing about antennas in attics... good way to lose about 25db of signal before even getting started. Keep the TV antennas out of the attic.
sputnik said:
CBC will have an effective radiated power (ERP) of 15,600 watts on channel 58 in September, likely you will recieve this with an indoor antenna.

The KVOS-DT 35 (12.1) won't be full power untill next summer and CHAN-DT 22 (8.1) (global) will only be broadcasting with effective radiated power (ERP) of 4,300 watts when ever they decide to get on the air (next year???).

CKVU-DT (CityTV) has not applied for a licence yet.
All of these points have already been discussed in this thread or in the OTA Forum, including a response directly from Global. Also in the Forum there's a brilliant discussion of IC/CRTC/FCC broadcasting policies that describe issues with OTA DTV power output of transitional stations such as the new DT channels coming up in Vancouver.

Now that those DT stations are starting to come up here its great to share info and keep a step ahead in order to get the best reception. Previous posts in this thread and others deal with such reception information, and there are no promises made, just real world successes and failures. That's precisely what we are documenting here, hopefully even down to the street corner if we need to.

Above all, please make use of the previous posts to avoid duplication or misinformation.

EDIT: please see the final paragraph in this post: http://www.digitalhomecanada.com/forum/showpost.php?p=219790&postcount=43
 
#23 ·
Sarke said:
Seriously though, what's going on? How come I can get this one channel so well and nothing else? I realise that my position is not very good (appartment not very high up on a slope facing south), but the main reason I wanted to add OTA was for CBC-HD once it starts transmitting. I had of course hoped to be able to pull in a few American networks, but it's all 0%.
...
Shouldn't I be able to get KVOS from Bellingham if I'm getting KBCB? They're both transmitting from the same place and they both have roughly the same HAAT but KVOS's ERP is much stronger.
Sarke, in this thread you will see in the station manager's own words that KVOS-DT is running a peashooter as its DTV transmitter. KBCB-DT and KVOS-DT are not broadcasting from the same place, as the manager's response and some reading shows. They're not even broadcasting from the same place as their analog counterparts either, so its not good to assume that they should be at equal strength or compass bearing.

Also I've advised you in our previous PM communications to ask a professional such as 4DTV_HD to do an assessment of your apartment, given your circumstances. You've purchased a great PC card for ATSC reception, but now you're in need of getting the antenna right if you want U.S. stations and if your location allows them. A signal spectrum analyzer will tell in real time whether to bother or not. For the local DT stations as they come up, your indoor antenna should most likely be fine and you'll be spending some time walking around with it to get the best location, as Sputnik has suggested.

If you go with an indoor antenna you get indoor antenna results, which in no way, shape, or form match outdoor antennas of the right kind to meet your expectations of U.S. channels. If you want a Porsche, buy a Porsche, not a bicycle. If you want to just zip over to the store for some milk, buy a bicycle but don't complain about its poor highway speed. ;)

We are here to help you, free of charge I might add. Help us help you by reading through this thread and looking through the great information throughout the OTA Forum for the info you need. I love helping people out.
 
#24 ·
stampeder said:
Sarke, in this thread you will see in the station manager's own words that KVOS-DT is running a peashooter as its DTV transmitter. KBCB-DT and KVOS-DT are not broadcasting from the same place, as the manager's response and some reading shows. They're not even broadcasting from the same place as their analog counterparts either, so its not good to assume that they should be at equal strength or compass bearing.
I did read through the thread a few weeks ago, I must have forgot about the quote from the KVOS station mananager. The FCC list them as 612.2 kW (much stronger than KBCB) so that's what I went with. By "same place" I ment of course Bellingham, and not the exact physical coordinates. A quick look at the FCC's website puts them only 900m apart, which translates to only 0.76 degrees diffrence from my position. Same general direction to me, so I thought it was a good station to compare to (as I had forgotten about them not transmitting at full power).

stampeder said:
Also I've advised you in our previous PM communications to ask a professional such as 4DTV_HD to do an assessment of your apartment, given your circumstances. You've purchased a great PC card for ATSC reception, but now you're in need of getting the antenna right if you want U.S. stations and if your location allows them. A signal spectrum analyzer will tell in real time whether to bother or not. For the local DT stations as they come up, your indoor antenna should most likely be fine and you'll be spending some time walking around with it to get the best location, as Sputnik has suggested.
I did contact 4DTV HD, but I decided to buy the tuner card without doing the test (since I will have use for the analog tuner as well, and was pretty sure that CBC will be close and strong enough for me to pick up). For me at the moment the price 4DTV HD charges for the test is too high to make it worth while, but that is not to say I won't do it in the future. I could buy a CM 4228 for the same price though. I have tried different locations in the appartment, but only the direction seems to make a difference.

stampeder said:
If you go with an indoor antenna you get indoor antenna results, which in no way, shape, or form match outdoor antennas of the right kind to meet your expectations of U.S. channels. If you want a Porsche, buy a Porsche, not a bicycle. If you want to just zip over to the store for some milk, buy a bicycle but don't complain about its poor highway speed. ;)
I didn't complain, and I didn't expect to get US stations. I said I was "hoping" and I knew my chances were slim. I realise my antenna is not very good, that's why I asked if it was worth investing in a better one and pre-amp considering I have zero signal with the one I have. I was just surprised that I was getting one channel so well and not even a faint signal for anything else.

stampeder said:
We are here to help you, free of charge I might add. Help us help you by reading through this thread and looking through the great information throughout the OTA Forum for the info you need. I love helping people out.
And I do appreciate the help. I have been reading the OTA forum for a couple of weeks now, looking up info on different antennas and amps, trying to educate myself on OTA before I bought the ATI HDTV Wonder. I am still new to this though, so please bear with me.

Please don't be so hard on sputnik, his response was very helpful. Even though it might have been mentioned elsewhere, it was very pertinent to me and the discussion, and it was a good summary.
 
#25 ·
Sarke said:
I did read through the thread a few weeks ago, I must have forgot about the quote from the KVOS station mananager. The FCC list them as 612.2 kW (much stronger than KBCB) so that's what I went with. By "same place" I ment of course Bellingham, and not the exact physical coordinates. A quick look at the FCC's website puts them only 900m apart, which translates to only 0.76 degrees diffrence from my position.
Nope, KVOS-DT is being operated in a lab bench setup from their offices, and the FCC site shows their HAAT as minus 42 metres. From my house the antenna bearing is different but with a CM4228 its not much of a turn, thankfully.
Sarke said:
Please don't be so hard on sputnik, his response was very helpful. Even though it might have been mentioned elsewhere, it was very pertinent to me and the discussion, and it was a good summary.
My intention was not personal, and DHC rules do not allow slagging of people so I would not do that. Some of us read the past few posts and began to wonder why we'd bothered contributing here if its not going to be read. That's why my role as moderator here compelled me to steer all of us on the same path. Again, no personal slight was intended.
 
#26 ·
HD baby! Vancouver Fraserview (SE Marine Dr between Jellicoe and Kerr)

I think I found the sweet spot of my appartment! :cool: I have the Silver Sensor suspedend mid-air with the help of some tape in the top corner of my bedroom window (farthest edge of my appartment). It looks terrible and I had to move the comp, but I'm getting an English speaking channel in HD so I love it! :D

18 18-1 KCPQ-DT Tacoma 12-21% (No picture)
19 24-1 KBCB-DT Bellingham 88% (Solid picture)
48 5-1 KING-DT Seattle 64-66% (Solid picture, very occasional dropouts)
48 5-2 KING-SD Seattle 64-66% (Solid picture, very occasional dropouts)

I'm getting some ideas now that I have a signal to work with. A CM4228 would cover that window nicely, and I have those curtains closed all the time anyways so the neighbours wouldn't think I had been assimilated or something! Would that be able to bring up the KCPQ signal to a stable level, or would I have to get a pre-amp as well? The window is facing south btw, so direction wise it's good too.
 
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