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Across CANADA - CTV stations to be discontinued?

16K views 61 replies 23 participants last post by  JamesK 
#1 ·
Are some of CTV repeaters for sure going to be shutting down?

So I never really herd if the Repeaters they requested to be shut down, were for sure going to be shut down. I'm really wondering about the Channel 2 CKCO repeater in Wiarton (near our cottage).

My Grandma (who is up here almost all the time) is devoted to the CKCO news and the channel is not on Shaw Direct also our other 2 tv's with set top antennas, its the only channel they can receive.

Our main tv up here is on the Roof Antenna and we have Shaw Direct for the summer so it's not completely the end of the world. I'm just more curious then anything.

I herd AUG 31st was the date they could do it.
 
#42 ·
Well they haven't gone off air yet, but that does seem to be the idea. Guess we'll have to wait to see what the CRTC says when it reviews the application.

The following article talks about the potential closures: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/06/01/f-digital-tv-transition.html

Did some number crunching and 10% of these populations (likely the actual number is more as someone mentioned the point that surrounding communities (not counted in population total of the transmitting community) also watch) is over 150,000. Maybe that's not a huge number but I'd argue it is hugely significant to the people it affects.

Stampeder, is there a specific spot on this website devoted to discussing these OTA changes? Seems to me a lot is going down in the near future but not everyone is aware. I'm sure you don't want the site to become politically biased, but isn't there a way to advertise the issue and just provide facts? And post it somewhere where everyone who logs onto the OTA portion can know where it is and click on it if they so choose? Right now there seem to be a lot of different threads in many different places..you have to dig around a great deal to see what's what..is it possible to have all related threads in one location and advertise/inform about it like currently done in the "Welcome to the Over-the-Air (OTA) Television Forums" block for the OTA Reception Results Forum, for example? In my opinion anyways, everybody with an antenna should be aware of digital conversion issues, including potential shutdown of repeater stations, and they should also be encouraged to speak out to everyone they can....

TVlurker, I think it'd be good to know what Canwest is up to too - do you know of any other transmissions they have or want to shut down?
 
#29 ·
Stampeder you are right, we don't know for sure what that list will mean and I have to be careful about just throwing stuff like that out there.

That said, there is a real problem, already started, that could eventually kill most ota for smaller communities. I don't have near enough facts straight at this point, but it seems that it's the repeater stations that are most at risk. People I talk to at crtc and ctv seem to treat the question of services outside the most major urban areas as a non issue. Apparently the idea that all Canadians should have free access to basic national and local television services is a joke?

Sorry, this issue has gotten me quite upset which tends to start a rant...

And maybe this topic would best be placed in a different thread? Not just a CTV problem.

Does anyone have references or know the details of the original and current simsub/priority carriage status agreements? How does it work that a broadcaster like CTV has priority carraige (or maybe it doesn't?) on cable in communities it doesn't serve ota? And is it that they aren't allowed to simsub local ads that they are serving ota? If so, why? Quite confused about all this and would like to learn more...
 
#30 ·
@bcgirl: You are correct that there appears to be a carefree attitude from our government with regards to OTA access. Contrast this to the US, where the government made a concerted effort to ensure public access to OTA persists beyond the conversion. Even to the extent that consumers were given coupons towards the purchase of tuner boxes...

That would never happen here in Canada.

My theory is always follow the money. BDU subscriptions generate millions in tax revenues for the government. BDU's create jobs...which further enhance tax revenue. And by disuading use of OTA spectrum, the government can eventually cash in on huge auction fees. Therefore, it appears to be in their best interest to "encourage" people to subscribe to BDU services.
 
#31 ·
If a station meets the criteria for local station improvement funds, they (and their repeaters) will receive funding.
Repeaters in Southwestern Ontario are almost all for Toronto stations that produce no local programming and don't qualify. (There is one repeater for CFPL London that might.) If the original station qualifies for local programming, then I agree but many repeaters (dozens in SW Ontario) are for large city stations that produce no local content in the areas the repeaters serve.

That's a stretch. A lot of those stations predate the 1968 establishment of the CRTC, let alone the institution of simsub regulations in the early 70's.
NONE of the repeaters in SW Ontario predate the CRTC or simsubs. They are a phenomenon that sprang up in the 1980s and 1990s, along with the advent of frequent simsubs. Prior to that, many shows on Canadian networks aired at different, often earlier, times than on US networks. Once simsub technology became common, that changed. Note that CTV, CITY and Global do not provide a grade A repeater for London. They provide repeaters with grade B contours that qualify for simsubs but do not provide a usable signal for most Londoners. Most of the other repeaters provide such a poor quality signal that they cannot be watched either. However, they are good enough to provide simsub opportunities on cable.
 
#32 ·
@scarybob: I see only two stations on the list that are repeaters for CFTO Toronto (Bobcaygeon and Severn Falls).

Southwestern Ontario does have it's own CTV station: CKCO Kitchener. And this station does have several repeaters throughout the southwestern Ontario region. The Kitchener station itself may qualify for funding...

And "A" Channel stations in Ontario would all likely qualify for LPIF funding...given that they serve London, Wingham, Ottawa.
 
#33 ·
Quote:
I said:
That's a stretch. A lot of those stations predate the 1968 establishment of the CRTC, let alone the institution of simsub regulations in the early 70's.

ScaryBob said:
NONE of the repeaters in SW Ontario predate the CRTC or simsubs. They are a phenomenon that sprang up in the 1980s and 1990s, along with the advent of frequent simsubs. Prior to that, many shows on Canadian networks aired at different, often earlier, times than on US networks. Once simsub technology became common, that changed. Note that CTV, CITY and Global do not provide a grade A repeater for London. They provide repeaters with grade B contours that qualify for simsubs but do not provide a usable signal for most Londoners. Most of the other repeaters provide such a poor quality signal that they cannot be watched either. However, they are good enough to provide simsub opportunities on cable.
I wasn't only talking about Southern Ontario.
A lot of those rebroadcasters did exist in the late sixties -- some even predate CTV and the "second television service" altogether, like CJOH-TV-8 Cornwall, which was on the air as early as 1959 as failed attempt at a CBC-affiliate trying to rim-shot Montreal, unlike CHCH's successful rim-shot of Toronto as a CBC-affilliate.

CKNX Wingham predated simsub. CKVR's relays in Central Ontario (Owen Sound, Huntsville, Parry Sound) predated simsub. But I think you're right, the CKCO relays in Huntsville, Wiarton, and Chatham came slightly later.

I agree that Global and CH and to a lesser extent SunTV's rebroadcasters are a creature of the simsub rules. Not so sure about the relays in other provinces, though.
 
#34 ·
ScaryBob said:
These repeaters were put in place originally to allow simsubs on area cable systems. CTV now has approval to request simsubs for areas where no stations exist. Therefore the repeaters are no longer necessary and CTV is shutting them down rather than spend any money for digital conversion.
cd
Actually some of the older stations may have been built to provide a signal to viewers in areas out-of-range of their primary stations - people who had never been cable subscribers at the time. Even if the relays could not run local ads, advertisers in the larger city (and nationwide advertisers) had customers in the outlying areas, and some larger businesses in the outlying areas may have bought ad time either to draw business from the larger city or to reach their local area even if the ad were also "wasted" on the other areas.
 
#36 ·
Many of the transmitters have been around since the 1960s, some since the late 50s, to simply extend television service to remote areas. CHBC in Kelowna had two repeaters the day it signed on because of the mountainous terrain of the region. By 1968, CHAN in Vancouver already had a bunch of transmitters in the Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island, and CHEK already covered a good chunk of the island. CFCL in Timmins had a large transmitter network covering Northeastern Ontario and Northwestern Quebec. CBC had quite a few repeaters by that time as well, particularly in Northwestern Ontario and British Columbia.

CKCO's transmitters all came about in the 1970s. CFTO's came on in 1995, reportedly to allow cottagers from the GTA to be able to get CFTO's newscasts while at the cottage. It makes sense considering they established the Orillia transmitter with much overlap with what was then a CKCO repeater in Huntsville - now an MCTV repeater - which in both cases provided news of little interest to Toronto cottagers.
 
#38 ·
@ScaryBob

I don't know when simsub started, but some SW ontario repeaters definitely predated the 1980's.
TVontario CICO32 (Windsor); CICO59 (Chatham) and CICO18 (London) 1976
SRC CBLFT repeaters in Sarnia (68) London (40 - since moved to 53) Chatham (48) and Kitchener (76 - since moved to 61) no later than 1979 (when I first saw them)
(CBEFT Windsor, 78 - since moved to 54, came on in 1976, but was not a relayer, it had some local Windsor programming, it was converted to a relayer in budget cuts years later)
CTV CKCO3 Oil Springs (42) 1974
Global CKGN1 Cottam (22), CKGN29 Oil Springs (29) 1975
Note: CKGN1 was destroyed by a fire in 1977 or 1978 - another channel 22 transmitter, CIII22, was built almost 20 years later, and was not a rebuild of the Cottam transmitter. It was built at a different site, and deliberately different coverage contours, so it would not have to black out US copyright programming. To add to the confusion, Global had another channel 22 repeater with that started out with the CKGN22 call sign, at Uxbridge, which became CIII22 when all the Globals went to the CIII call sign. It was replaced with TWO global relayers, at the CN tower (41) and Midland (7)
CIII29 is simply the original 29 relayer with only the CIII sall sign change.
CIII Paris (6) is not considered a relayer, it is considered the parent station, even though the studio and offices are far closer to relayer CIII41.


@JamesK

Actually, CBC had lots of competition before the fall of 1960 - it was just transmitting from my side of the river/lake/49th.
 
#39 ·
Point of clarification:

There wouldn't have been any transmitters around in the late 50s, other than CBC & affiliates. There wasn't any competition to the CBC until the fall of 1960.
CKSO Sudbury had a transmitter in Elliot Lake as early as 1957. Others established before 1960 included an Argentia repeater of CJON in St. John's, several repeaters of CBHT from Halifax in Southwest Nova Scotia, and as I indicated, CHBC in Vernon and Penticton.
 
#40 ·
Simsubbing started in 1972. The use of repeaters began in Canada in the mid-1960s, and CBC installed lots of them starting in 1974 as part of their Accelerated Coverage Plan.

See the timeline in this thread:

OTA, Cable, and Satellite TV in Canada: the Historical View

This thread is wandering a bit off topic, so unless we get some concrete info on CTV's station closure plans we'll just leave it be for now. :)
 
#41 ·
I don't know about the others, but CKSO was originally a CBC affiliate, as all independently owned TV stations were required to be, until 1960. TV competitors were not permitted until then. CHCH TV, in Hamilton is another example of an independent that started out as a CBC affiliate. Prior to Sept 1960 there was not a single television station in Canada, that was not owned by or affiliated to the CBC. The situation in Canada was similar to, but not as bad as in England, where the "Beeb" was the only legal broadcaster for many years (Until about 40 odd years ago, independent British radio stations had to operate from ships in internation waters). The singer Kieth Hampshire was a DJ on one of those ships operating off the coast of England.
 
#44 ·
It's in the appendix of the supporting report for their 2009 licence renewal hearing. Isn't that yet to come later this fall?

Wait a minute, ok, I see - the licence decisions were made this past spring, yes? So this list is old news then. Please forgive my ignorance, I'm muddling my way through all this.

Can anybody tell me in dumb speak what the hearing in the fall is to be about then? Reading through the notic of consultation (http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2009/2009-411.htm) they're to discuss how licencing renewal will take place in the future and how digital transition should take place??? But hasn't the CRTC already decided OTA transition will only be required in 29 cities? Or is it that what's they're proposing and will decide further later on???
 
#46 ·
hahahahah

It's all marketing!!!

( a way to get more customers on cable or satelite than ota)

money and subcriptions to the gong tower satellite system ( ctv's owner ):eek:

hey gong , ppl don't need 30000 channels too many comercials and too many repeats of the same shows too watch :p, and you know specialty channels don't deliver for the money or internet rates would not have risen ....

just like the sour-oce can only buy crappy ota gear for resale to individuals , I wonder why ? :?

who owns the sourorce ? hahahahah the gong ?
 
#47 ·
CTV, CBC, the CRTC and OTA TV

In response to bcgirl's questions about what is going on with CTV and the point of the November CRTC hearing, here is a bit of the recent history, as I know it, and what it means for digital OTA TV:

I have been following the CRTC hearings since 2006, when broadcasters first indicated their plans for the digital transition during the "TV Policy" hearing.

All of the broadcasters except CBC were vague in that 2006 hearing, saying they wanted to do as little as possible for the transition. CBC said it planned to reduce its current crop of 700+ analogue transmitters and repeaters to 44 digital transmitters for originating stations only.

At that time (actually in its 2007 decision on that hearing), the CRTC set the August 2011 deadline for the digital transition and ruled that it would not require broadcasters to update their existing transmitters - and repeaters - to digital but would only provide simsub and priority carriage after the switchover to those stations with digital transmitters. Apparently, the CRTC thought - despite the obvious reluctance of the broadcasters - that the digital transition would actually involve an investment in OTA.

During last spring's hearing that ended in the short-term licence renewals, the CRTC asked the private broadcasters for their "detailed plans" for the transition. Only Rogers - with among the smallest crop of transmitters - provided a truly detailed plan; Rogers will update all of its OMNI and Citytv transmitters by 2011.

Again, the CRTC heard the complaints from broadcasters about their financial situation and most of the hearing was taken up with discussions about the Local Program Improvement Fund (which is not to be spent on transmitters, as far as I know, but on news programming), fee for carriage and Canadian content. The part of the hearing on the digital transition was a footnote, at best.

Meanwhile, the deadline for the transition was about 2 years away and it was clear that none of the broadcasters had really begun to look at it very seriously.

After the spring hearing, the CRTC decided to *require* digital transmitters in communities that fall under the following categories:

1) More than 300,000 in population
2) More than one originating station
3) Provincial or territorial capital.

The CRTC listed 29 communities it thought fell under these criteria.

Earlier, CTV had applied for permission to do "direct feeds" of its digital signal to cable and satellite providers in nine communities on a temporary basis, arguing it didn't want to put up transmitters because the Industry Canada frequency allotment hadn't been finalized. The CRTC said ok so now it has simsub and priority carriage, on an interim basis, for its digital feed in Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa (two stations), Pembroke, Barrie, Winnipeg, Regina, Edmonton and Victoria. All but Pembroke are on that 29-city list mentioned above ... so presumably the arrangement in those other places will indeed by temporary.

At last spring's hearing, CTV notified the CRTC that it was turning off a series of analolgue repeaters in smaller areas and, as far as I know, those repeaters have been/are being shut down.

CTV told CRTC it wasn't renewing the Windsor, Wingham and Brandon stations at that time, but later changed its mind on Windsor and Wingham (after the LPIF money was increased) and sold the Brandon station to Bluepoint.

The CBC confirmed its transition plans publicly at last week's "Annual General Meeting" (webcast): Right now, CBC and Radio-Canada have a total of 8 digital transmitters (combo of English and French). They plan to do a total of 32 digital transmitters (down from the 44 they talked about back in 2006) and only if they find the money will they finish the job. This will, indeed, involve shutting down hundreds of analogue repeaters across Canada. From their own estimates, 300,000 existing OTA viewers will be cut off.

Now for the November hearing - first off, it is likely to be completely dominated by the "fee-for-carriage" debate. However, the CRTC wanted comments on what I believe are two key aspects of the digital transition:

1) Is the list of 29 cities mandated for the transition appropriate? (Ie. should the list be larger or smaller?)
2) Should broadcasters who don't put up digital transmitters still get the simsub and priority carriage benefits?

If you care about availability of free digital TV outside of the big centres - CTV or otherwise - the obvious answers to the questions is NO (the list is way too short) and NO!

By the way, the November hearing is likely to be delayed or changed in some way because of the government's order to allow more time for "consumers" to comment on the "fee-for-carriage" issue. (Unfortunately, no apparent concern to make sure "consumers" know about what's likely to happen to free TV and to give them time to comment on THAT.)

After all I've seen and heard in the last few years, I cannot be very optimistic that the broadcasters will do more than they tell the CRTC they will do on the digital front. Having talked to some of them, I can tell you their hearts are really not in it.

The best solution would probably be something I've seen mentioned on other threads: a new organization to launch something like Freeview in Canada.
 
#50 ·
At last spring's hearing, CTV notified the CRTC that it was turning off a series of analolgue repeaters in smaller areas and, as far as I know, those repeaters have been/are being shut down.
Even thought CTVgm applied to shut them down, the CRTC renewed the licenses for all of them so to the best of my knowledge, none of these repeaters have been shut down and I believe they will be operational for at least another year. My theory is that a back room deal was worked out to keep them running until August 31, 2011.
 
#49 ·
At last spring's hearing, CTV notified the CRTC that it was turning off a series of analolgue repeaters in smaller areas and, as far as I know, those repeaters have been/are being shut down.
Good summary, but I don't think CTV has shut down any repeaters to date. Certainly it is my understading that the CJOH transmitters in Corwall, Deseronto, and PEmbroke are still operating. Note that these licenses were all renewed by the CRTC, and AFAIK, CTV has not returned them for cancellation.
 
#51 ·
Tell the CRTC and government what you think

Is the public still able to submit interventions for the next round of CRTC hearings?
Is there a list somewhere of the 32 transmitters CBC plans to convert to DTV?
1) The CRTC closed comments for the upcoming hearing in mid-September. However: the government has since ordered the CRTC to go back and solicit comments from "consumers" on the fee-for-carriage aspect of the hearing. The CRTC has not yet issued that notice (might come this week), but I don't think there's anything stopping you from using the opportunity to also comment on OTA. After all, if only the 29 cities on the CRTC list get digital OTA, about 11 million Canadians would have to pay for cable or satellite to watch any TV at all. That would mean they would be stuck with what the cable companies are calling a "TV tax" in the form of fee-for-carriage.

2) The CBC has never published a list of the transmitters it plans to upgrade to digital. Last week, CBC President Hubert Lacroix said at the Annual Meeting that the CBC plans to put up a total of 32. In their comment on 2009-411, CBC says they aim to put up a digital transmitter for every originating station. By my count, CBC and Radio-Canada have 27 owned and operated TV stations, so I'm not sure where the other 5 would be.
 
#52 ·
reader said:
By my count, CBC and Radio-Canada have 27 owned and operated TV stations, so I'm not sure where the other 5 would be.
I can think of a few provincial capital cities with no originating CBC TV station:
- Victoria, B.C. (English & French)
- Quebec City, Que. (English)
- Halifax (French)
- St. John's, Nfld. (French)
Then there are places where digital upgrades are required but there are only CBC repeaters. Lethbridge, Alta., and Kelowna, B.C., come to mind.
And then there are places like Calgary, where there is no originating Radio-Canada station but is large enough to require a digital upgrade.
 
#53 ·
CBC says they aim to put up a digital transmitter for every originating station. By my count, CBC and Radio-Canada have 27 owned and operated TV stations, so I'm not sure where the other 5 would be.
The CBC has previously indicated that they plan to add a digital transmitter in Victoria, and accordingly the IC database now includes an entry for such an allocation.

The CBC can and should maintain all its low-power transmitters in analog, which I believe will be permitted in Canada. This will especially be important in the far North, where cable may not be available and satellite is cost-prohibitive. Some existing transmitters in areas like Sudbury could be downgraded to LP to allow them to continue on.

Some of CBC's transmitters are really not needed though.
 
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