Satellite Piracy in North America (Warning you must read post #1) - Page 27

Moose57 · 2009-07-25, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Soniceview is also in trouble

Do you have a DHC acceptable postable link for the Sonicview troubles?

Interceptor · 2009-07-26, 12:09 AM

Looking at the sociology of this piracy, I believe some delve into it as a hobby or a challenge as a lot of us may have a little larceny inside us. The majority though, I believe are looking for a cheap alternative as the price point of legal services is too expensive in their eyes and so piracy is a competitor for legal services. Some have stated that if we can get rid of the pirates; Bell, Shaw, Rogers etc. and stateside, Dish will gain legal clients so they can lower our prices. I don't believe for a minute Bell et al would lower prices and in fact, by losing a competitor they could raise prices. I don't pirate and have no wish to and just sit back and watch because it's an interesting story, but draw your own conclusions about how this may shake out.

Moose57 · 2009-07-26, 01:37 AM

The other social aspect you may not have considered and I believe the root of the original pirates was content not available to them.

Consider the Canadian broadcast system in the late 80's, early 90's when it was almost common to have a DirecTV system or two.
And quite legal at the time, not unlike marijuana until the 1940's, but I digress.

Then all of a sudden, once normal citizens became criminals. WTF?
By this time, many were quite attached to their HBO, Showtime & ESPN and many still are.
So what to do? Since you couldn't legally subscribe anymore, you either turned Canadian or stole it from the U.S.
Until the legislation changed, their was little 'testing' as it was mostly a dealer thing.

When the NDS doors began to close, the low fruit became Dish's Nagra and quite conveniently used the global DVB standard protocol.
It was only a matter of time for the FTA explosion as we know it today to take off and in this case, I agree, the opportunity to view a 1000 channels on each side of the border with a relatively inexpensive setup is rather compelling for those with lower moral fortitude.

There are will likely continue to be testers out there and the free TVers as well.
The argument while somewhat still valid for foreign content is less an issue today with perverted Canadian versions of most U.S. content.

Had the original judicial opinion that since it wasn't licensed in Canada, you must NOT subscribe over the border, but were quite entitled to steal been upheld, and Bell et all lost their case to force subscribers towards Canadian systems, then I believe that once NDS went secure, the whole market and the FTA evolution might not have unfolded the way it did, so in summary, the current piracy mess is Bell's fault!

bete_noir · 2009-07-26, 02:15 AM

Moose57 asked:

Quote:

Do you have a DHC acceptable postable link for the Sonicview troubles?

Dish Network L.L.C. et al v. Sonicview USA, Inc. et al

Plaintiffs: Dish Network L.L.C., Echostar Technologies L.L.C. and Nagrastar L.L.C.

Defendants: Sonicview USA, Inc., Sonicviewra LLC, Sonicviewsa LLC, Roberto Sanz, DontPay4TV, LLC, Duane Bernard, Courtney Bernard and DOES

Case Number: 3:2009cv01553
Filed: July 17, 2009

Code:

http://rapidshare.com/files/260111766/DN_v_SonicView.pdf.html

peano · 2009-07-26, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose57

There are will likely continue to be testers out there and the free TVers as well.
The argument while somewhat still valid for foreign content is less an issue today with perverted Canadian versions of most U.S. content.

What you say is all true when N2 was in place. Now, however, satellite piracy in North America is over. The cards won't be hacked. Sure there is key sharing, but that is more like account sharing, not a hack. And IKS will certainly lead to end users being prosecuted. The pirate FTA crowd are not the smartest bunch and will pay for it in court. They could share a sub which is easier, cheaper and safer. (I'm not condoning or recommending just pointing out lack of intelligence). But I digress.

The new security in the smart cards cannot be defeated. Satellite piracy is finished.

Moose57 · 2009-07-26, 02:26 PM

Quote:

The new security in the smart cards cannot be defeated. Satellite piracy is finished.

Possible, but also not impossible.
I'm sure they said that about the N1 to N2 transition until N2 fell only weeks after rollout. One would hope that N3 would at least keep them at bay a little longer.

I think the initial challenge will be to 'OPEN' the cards for a dump.
Once achieved, I expect N3 will fall within a matter of weeks.
The whole Nagra architecture is well known. N3 is just another variant.
It may take an army of testers glitching 24/7 for months, but with enough combinations of voltage, frequency and so forth, chances are good it will fall.
I believe that's what created the dump of N2.

As for IKS, if the servers are seized, then maybe. Depends on how much pressure U.S. and Canadian corporations are able to apply to foreign governments to take action.
Didn't Echostar pen a letter to the Korean minister of industry? We see how far that went.
And IKS is still piracy, so in various forms it should enjoy a long life because the simple fact that Nagra is vulnerable to man in the middle attacks.
Had it been designed inside a secure processor like DCII, their might never have been an issue.

Signal theft appears to be significantly curtailed, but not extinguished as evidenced by the many thousands that continue to enjoy FREE TV and all under N3.
At least it's not in the millions. Goes back to a earlier statement as to just what is an acceptable rate of theft versus the cost of obliteration.

bev fan · 2009-07-26, 02:42 PM

DN is not waiting this time until Nagra 3 is cracked and are getting Nagra 4 ready regardless , so it will not be easy for pirates to get back in business this time . Also they have learned great deal from DirectTv and are taking legal action against hackers and FTA receivers distributors.

HDTV101 · 2009-07-26, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peano

No he doesn't because it is BS.

Mili, who is one of the biggest crooks amongst all the crooks in the pirate business, spreads this manure so he can sell more Slinger boxes.

bev_fan just backed me up on this... G4 or N4 is being worked on by DN.

peano · 2009-07-27, 12:10 PM

Ummm. Not quite. They are working on a new card. That is their new strategy to have a new card ready to deploy. That does not mean N3 is hacked. It is not.

39sfa · 2009-07-27, 05:42 PM

I would speculate that not only are they working on N4, but are also at least planning out a replacement for it. N5 or something else.

HDTV101 · 2009-07-27, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peano

If this was true, they wouldn't need IKS anymore. There is a new rumour of a hack everyday perpetrated by the FTA box manufacturers trying to sell receivers. Its BS.

Even if they did crack the N3 card there will never be a public bin released… there would be no point to that since it won’t make the hackers any money. Using IKS the hackers can keep better control over their own security and IKS also prevents their competitors from stealing the bin’s to use on their own system. IKS requires the end users buy special hardware meaning the hackers make money on the sale of the hardware (receivers, slingers, iHubs, etc..).. also look at what NF did they discontinued support of their first IKS receiver the Nova forcing people to have to upgrade and by a new box. They claimed the Nova was being cloned but this was just an excuse. There are also private IKS networks that you use a Dream Box and pay a monthly fee to use this private IKS server.

frenchhomer · 2009-07-28, 12:10 AM

If the new cards are hacked it will become public, iks will die.

Moose57 · 2009-07-28, 03:12 AM

I worked alongside a BTV commercial tech to upgrade some gear and for them at least, the cards automatically get swapped out every so many years, 3 I thought I heard as part of the Kudelski Nagrastar contract.

This will happen whether the system is compromised or not and on a commercial timetable not driven by pirating activities.

All I can say is what happens, happens if at all, so deal with and enough with the speculative B.S. unless you are personally on the inside track and not just some friend of a friend told somebody.

The best pirating does is ramp up ECM exercises and maybe the investigation and litigation group.

bev fan · 2009-07-28, 09:40 AM

Few months ago there was a news release by DN that they are getting N4 ready , so this is a fact . If you try hard enough you can find their statement on the internet. Unfortunetly their system has been compromised already by IKS , so the new cards will not help much. Now if DN wants to hurt pirates it should wait a bit longer for IKS to became more popular and then strike and hit the pirates where it hurts , in the pocket book. That is ofcourse if there is a way to stop IKS.

HT gearhead · 2009-07-28, 10:45 AM

I think these third party conditional access companies are bogus in the sense they keep having to "update and upgrade" their encryption schemes which keeps the money flowing and the pirates busy. They have the technology to implement a random encryption system similar to DCII but they won't for the simple fact that they would stop making money upselling their newest wares to DTH companies. They could license an unbreakable CA system for an annual fee instead and still make money. The current model just doesn't work and they know it. As long as there is an interface [smart card slot] for hackers to access there will be pirated systems. DCII works well because the encryption is embedded in the hardware with no way to easily access it. Yes it has been compromised but due to the nature of DCII, new keys are generated almost hourly so any attempt to thwart the system is short lived and not worth the effort it takes to crack it in the first place. For the record I don't condone piracy, stealing signals from service providers without paying for them on either side of the border.

2009-07-28, 03:12 AM	#403
Moose57 Join Date: May 2009 Location: Near the Hills Posts: 293	All this talk of N4 & N5 is pure B.S.!!! I worked alongside a BTV commercial tech to upgrade some gear and for them at least, the cards automatically get swapped out every so many years, 3 I thought I heard as part of the Kudelski Nagrastar contract. This will happen whether the system is compromised or not and on a commercial timetable not driven by pirating activities. All I can say is what happens, happens if at all, so deal with and enough with the speculative B.S. unless you are personally on the inside track and not just some friend of a friend told somebody. The best pirating does is ramp up ECM exercises and maybe the investigation and litigation group.

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2009-07-26, 12:09 AM	#392
Interceptor Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sunshine Coast Posts: 348	Looking at the sociology of this piracy, I believe some delve into it as a hobby or a challenge as a lot of us may have a little larceny inside us. The majority though, I believe are looking for a cheap alternative as the price point of legal services is too expensive in their eyes and so piracy is a competitor for legal services. Some have stated that if we can get rid of the pirates; Bell, Shaw, Rogers etc. and stateside, Dish will gain legal clients so they can lower our prices. I don't believe for a minute Bell et al would lower prices and in fact, by losing a competitor they could raise prices. I don't pirate and have no wish to and just sit back and watch because it's an interesting story, but draw your own conclusions about how this may shake out.

2009-07-26, 01:37 AM	#393
Moose57 Join Date: May 2009 Location: Near the Hills Posts: 293	The other social aspect you may not have considered and I believe the root of the original pirates was content not available to them. Consider the Canadian broadcast system in the late 80's, early 90's when it was almost common to have a DirecTV system or two. And quite legal at the time, not unlike marijuana until the 1940's, but I digress. Then all of a sudden, once normal citizens became criminals. WTF? By this time, many were quite attached to their HBO, Showtime & ESPN and many still are. So what to do? Since you couldn't legally subscribe anymore, you either turned Canadian or stole it from the U.S. Until the legislation changed, their was little 'testing' as it was mostly a dealer thing. When the NDS doors began to close, the low fruit became Dish's Nagra and quite conveniently used the global DVB standard protocol. It was only a matter of time for the FTA explosion as we know it today to take off and in this case, I agree, the opportunity to view a 1000 channels on each side of the border with a relatively inexpensive setup is rather compelling for those with lower moral fortitude. There are will likely continue to be testers out there and the free TVers as well. The argument while somewhat still valid for foreign content is less an issue today with perverted Canadian versions of most U.S. content. Had the original judicial opinion that since it wasn't licensed in Canada, you must NOT subscribe over the border, but were quite entitled to steal been upheld, and Bell et all lost their case to force subscribers towards Canadian systems, then I believe that once NDS went secure, the whole market and the FTA evolution might not have unfolded the way it did, so in summary, the current piracy mess is Bell's fault!

2009-07-26, 02:42 PM	#397
bev fan Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 532	DN is not waiting this time until Nagra 3 is cracked and are getting Nagra 4 ready regardless , so it will not be easy for pirates to get back in business this time . Also they have learned great deal from DirectTv and are taking legal action against hackers and FTA receivers distributors.

2009-07-27, 12:10 PM	#399
peano Veteran Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 2,668	Ummm. Not quite. They are working on a new card. That is their new strategy to have a new card ready to deploy. That does not mean N3 is hacked. It is not.

2009-07-27, 05:42 PM	#400
39sfa Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: toronto Posts: 25	I would speculate that not only are they working on N4, but are also at least planning out a replacement for it. N5 or something else.

2009-07-28, 12:10 AM	#402
frenchhomer Rookie Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 13	If the new cards are hacked it will become public, iks will die.

2009-07-28, 09:40 AM	#404
bev fan Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 532	Few months ago there was a news release by DN that they are getting N4 ready , so this is a fact . If you try hard enough you can find their statement on the internet. Unfortunetly their system has been compromised already by IKS , so the new cards will not help much. Now if DN wants to hurt pirates it should wait a bit longer for IKS to became more popular and then strike and hit the pirates where it hurts , in the pocket book. That is ofcourse if there is a way to stop IKS.

2009-07-28, 10:45 AM	#405
HT gearhead Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,342	I think these third party conditional access companies are bogus in the sense they keep having to "update and upgrade" their encryption schemes which keeps the money flowing and the pirates busy. They have the technology to implement a random encryption system similar to DCII but they won't for the simple fact that they would stop making money upselling their newest wares to DTH companies. They could license an unbreakable CA system for an annual fee instead and still make money. The current model just doesn't work and they know it. As long as there is an interface [smart card slot] for hackers to access there will be pirated systems. DCII works well because the encryption is embedded in the hardware with no way to easily access it. Yes it has been compromised but due to the nature of DCII, new keys are generated almost hourly so any attempt to thwart the system is short lived and not worth the effort it takes to crack it in the first place. For the record I don't condone piracy, stealing signals from service providers without paying for them on either side of the border.