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Old 2006-09-28, 01:22 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dajad View Post
PVR Canada has put up this table comparing the features of the Rogers 8300 series of PVRs vs. the TiVo S2 dual-tuner unit:

http://www.pvrcanada.com/learning_ce...tivo_vs_rogers

...Dale
I'm no expert but this chart seems a little misleading. I have to ask since it's not easy to find prices at rogers.com, do Rogers people have to pay $21.94 a month for pvr fees on 8300sd if you bought the unit. Seems a little steep. I thought they tacked on a something like a $2.99 pvr fee?

I'm currently on year 2 of a sweet rogers ditch the dish+bundle deal so I'm not paying much right now. Come next August I have to decide if I want to keep what I have, go full HD, pick a Tivo, or build a htpc. Cost is certainly a factor.
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Old 2006-09-28, 01:28 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by heybirder View Post
I'm no expert but this chart seems a little misleading.
You bet... Tivo's Season Pass is by far superior to what the SA8300 has.
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Old 2006-09-28, 02:23 PM   #138
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You bet... Tivo's Season Pass is by far superior to what the SA8300 has.
The tivo is 10 times better then any roger pvr.
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Old 2006-09-28, 02:50 PM   #139
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Default I took the plunge and purchased an S3

Well, I did it. I just placed my order with Weaknees for an S3. It seems I am the first in Canada to do so. I choose the slow-boat shipping method to save $$$ so I don't know how long it will be before it arrives. All-in, including PST, GST, shipping, brokerage, U.S./Cdn $ conversion, I expect it to cost approximately $1,100 Cdn (give or take). Note, I will use my grandfathered lifetime subscription so there should be no other subscription costs from TiVo.

FYI, Jeff Anderson at PVRCanada.com said he will likely start stocking a limited supply of S3s in the near future to serve other Canadian bleeding-edge TiVo enthusiasts.

My S3/Canadian ATSC OTA trials and tribulations are documented here.

Alas, despite the S3 being substantially crippled in Canada at the moment (no current ATSC OTA support and no cablecard functionality), the following are my reasons (in no particular order):

1 DUAL-TUNER: Dual tuning/recording from my analogue cable (and whatever manual ATSC and digital cable I can do)

2. MANUAL QAM AND ATSC OTA HD RECORING: I just had it confirmed
in this AVSForum thread that I should be able to do manual ATSC OTA HD recording with the S3. In this, and many other threads, it has been confirmed that manual QAM tuning is possible with unencrypted digital QAM stations (of which Rogers seems to provide me with 28 or so).

3. ADVANCED FEATURES: Advanced S3 features (including podcast playback - and hopefully future video-podcast support) - I'm also hopeful that TiVoCast will start to provide me with iVOD purchase options. Plus the myriad other changes from the S1 (folders, undelete, faster screens, Internet-connectivity to mother ship - NOTE: Some of this is not implemented in the S3 initial software - TiVo has indicated it will be availalbe in an update by the end of the year)

4. DIGITAL PROGRAMMING REQUIRES LESS HARD DRIVE: Any SD digital cable channels that can be recorded will take up MUCH less space on the hard drive than converted analogue recordings on my current S1s.

5. ZERO OR FEWER FORMAT CONVERSIONS: Any SD digital cable channels will, by being digital, yield a better quality picture because there will be no analogue to cable to analogue conversions. It will be a straight up digital recording.

6. COMPONENT & HDMI OUTPUTS: Currently my S1s all output to s-video for display on my HD-Plasma TV. This looks fine, but digital SD channels look, MUCH better. So any SD digital I manage to record should yield at least a marginally better picture when output through component or HDMI than is the case with my S1s output through s-video.

7. eSATA EXPANSION: Finally, no more cracking the case to expand. As external eSata drives decrease in price, the probability of my adding external drives increases. But, as it stands, the S3 drive is about 70% larger than the hard drive in my 8300 HD PVR so it should be good enough for now (especially given that I’ll be keeping the 8300 for the foreseeable future).

8. TIME SHIFT PROBLEM WITH SIMPLICITY: When the daylight savings time changes take effect next spring, Simplicity will likely not be reliable any more.

9. STABILITY: My large-storage S1 has been flakey for some time. It needs to be replaced.

10. GRANDFATHERED LIFETIME SUBSCRIPTION: I can only transfer my grandfathered lifetime subscription once. While a dual-tuner S2 would probably be the best choice for the next year or so, I despise monthly fees. So, I'd rather go through this hassle than have to abandon my lifetime subscription when I eventually move to an S3 in the future.

11. POSSIBLE RETURN TO THE U.S.: I'm perpetually on the cusp of moving back to the U.S. If/when I do, I’ll get full functionality out of this beast there.

12. I DESPISE MY SFA 8300 HD PVR: I will do almost anything to minimize my reliance on that pitiful excuse for a PVR!!!

13. BLEEDING EDGE: I don't mind being on the bleeding edge of technology and exploring the latest and greatest and, happily, money usually isn't an issue.

14. WILL STILL USE OTHER PVRs: Until the S3 can be used to record everything, I'll still have my SFA 8300 to record HD I can't record OTA and I'll keep one of the S1s to record the digital cable channels the S3 won't record.

As always, once the device arrives, as I start testing it, I'll report my findings/discoveries/problems here.

Sure would be nice if there was a separate TiVo formum on Digital Home Canada - hint, hint!!

...Dale

Last edited by Dajad; 2006-09-28 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 2006-09-28, 03:33 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digihd View Post
The tivo is 10 times better then any roger pvr.
It doesn't even have to be 10x better.

Rogers SD offering has 1 tuner, 50 hours recording and costs $399+$21.94 a month. Tivo's unit has 2 tuners, up to 850 hours recording and costs $399+$14.80 a month. Anyone looking at this chart, would be a fool not to buy a Tivo!
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Old 2006-09-28, 03:41 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heybirder View Post
Rogers SD offering has 1 tuner, 50 hours recording and costs $399+$21.94 a month.
heybirder, please refrain from posting erroneous information. The 8300SD from Rogesr is Either $399, OR 21.94/month. NOT AND 21.94/mo. Rogers does have a digital fee of $2.99/mo, however, that is waived in some packages, and applies to all STBs, not just PVRs.

Also, the SA8300HD can currently be purchased for roughly $450/mo as I previously mentioned. Also, it's expandable as previously mentioned. This is NOT a TiVo vs SA thread, so let's stop it and let's especially not post incorrect information.

We all know how great the TiVo interface is, but there are some things that TiVo also doesn't do well, like have a single box solution for recording digital cable. Many people can easily hook up a Rogers PVR, but would be unable to properly programme and hook up a TiVo, have it interface with a Rogers STB, etc. This is especially true in Canada where TiVo is simply not used for digital cable by "ordinary" cable subscribers.
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Old 2006-09-28, 05:03 PM   #142
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Dajad, I will be anxiously awaiting your reports about getting the S3 working up here. I would love to have one as well and transfer my lifetime subscription over to it. Need to determine exactly how usable it would be first.

One thing, though: Don't you have to buy the S3 directly from Tivo in order to take advantage of the lifetime subscription transfer?
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Old 2006-09-28, 05:09 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by faston View Post
One thing, though: Don't you have to buy the S3 directly from Tivo in order to take advantage of the lifetime subscription transfer?
That is a point I am not certain on. It was the case for the first few days. Then TiVo started allowing exceptions because there were so many order screw-ups. Then it appears TiVo finally caved and made lifetime transferable to any unit purchased anywhere. Now, I don't know if that is the case for just the first week or so of screw-ups or if that is the final policy. I'm trying to find that out now.

But, alas, in my case all this is irrelevant. Any TiVo lifetime purchaser BEFORE January 22, 2000 has a one-time right to transfer their lifetime subscription independant of this particular S3 deal. I bought my first lifetime in October 1999, and have not yet used that grandfathered right. So, now is as good as any. It just happens to be that I'm co-incidently using it when TiVo is otherwise making the VIP offer for the S3 purchasers.

If I get a final answer on this I'll post here. But, troll around the www.tivocommunity.com forum (in the S3 sub-forum) and the answer is probably already there.

...Dale
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Old 2006-09-28, 09:21 PM   #144
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Thinking about the actual topic of TiVo in Canada for a moment.

TiVo was an incredibly innovative product that was possible, but tricky, to use in Canada. TiVo has evolved to be simple to use in Canada (Series 2) but is anything but innovative anymore.

TiVo was incredibly flexible. TiVo has become DRM infested and anti-consumer.

TiVo was the only and best game in town. TiVo was first shown up by ReplayTV (pretty substantially) and is now a significantly more restrictive option than an HTPC.

TiVo has always had decent PQ. But, the PQ from ReplayTV or an HTPC rivals it.

The TiVo S3 makes absolutely no sense as an almost $1000 product. There is so much more that can be had for that money. The product is, even in a cablecard supported environment, significantly crippled. It is a shadow of the product that TiVo first introduced and one which the community through the many hacks made into an amazing centrepiece of home theatre.

While I understand the frustration with cableco/satco PVR's ... it doesn't mean that next gen TiVo makes sense, even in the US. When you add the Canadian issues into the mix ... it's just a shame that they so badly lost their way.
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Old 2006-09-28, 09:38 PM   #145
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Johnny Cannuck ... Your post makes me laugh. Yes, for the average Joe or Jane in Canada, paying what I am for a crippled TiVo is crazy. But for lucky Amnerican's with mandated cablecard support there is NOTHING that comes close to it.

The currently "crippled" TiVo still does laps around everything else. There is no PVR that has the feature set of even the "crippled" TiVo. The "crippled" elements (ie: TiVotoGo and multi-room viewing) is only a short term issue until TiVo gets the political/policy kinks worked out with the CableCard folks. It isn't from a lack of abiltiy, TiVo's ONLY problems in Canada and the U.S. stem-from the extreme resistance from the Cable Companies and their market and political strengths in their respective markets to drag their feet on even legal mandates.

Criticize it all you wish in the Canadian market - I agree with your critcisms. Criticize the price, I agree the S3 is pricy! But in the U.S. context, you must be drinking the competitors' kool-aid (or perhaps you've never actually used one) to come to that conclusion!

...Dale

Last edited by Dajad; 2006-09-28 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 2006-09-28, 09:57 PM   #146
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Actually Dale,

I completely disagree with you. An HTPC running mature PVR software (eg. BTV or Sage) will run circles around any TiVo including an S3 ... up to and including OTA HDTV. As soon as a cablecard spec HD Tuner card (ATI or DVICO are probalby very close) arrives that issue is resolved.

I make comments with a great deal of affinity for TiVo. I owned and used an S1 with Simplicity. I have owned and used a ReplayTV with WiRNS. I own and use a cableco HD-PVR (Motorola 6412). I own and use and HTPC (Meedio and BTV on XP). I have answered your question about my having used a TiVo ... the inference being that my TiVo knowledge is limited. Hardly the case. I would be recognized on the TiVo Canada forums by another nick (think SBK), as I would at Planet Replay. You've read and responded to several of my posts at TiVo Canada. I say that only in response to your suggestion that I am somehow unfamiliar with the topic. I am very well versed in it.

I stand by my comments. An S3 TiVo at $899 US makes little sense in the US. In Canada it makes no sense. An S2 used to make sense before TiVo crippled it in later v. 7 releases. An S1 TiVo still makes sense as long as Simplicity continues to work. When it breaks ... it no longer makes sense.

Lastly, as far as TiVo in Canada goes ... and that is the topic of this thread ... once TiVo decided to add Canadian guide service, their treatment of the Canadian consumer has been high handed and contemtuous. I personally am not about to reward that approach with my hard earned money. It was the tipping point that sent me to ReplayTV and made me realize how far behind the true innovators TiVo has fallen.

Last edited by JohnnyCanuck; 2006-09-28 at 10:29 PM.
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Old 2006-09-29, 02:59 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faston View Post

One thing, though: Don't you have to buy the S3 directly from Tivo in order to take advantage of the lifetime subscription transfer?
OK, according to this response, and the general sense I was getting from reading the literally 100s of posts on the issue over the last week or so, the lifetime transfer offer now applies to S3s bought anywhere - not just from the TiVo store. See this post:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...&&#post4427869
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Old 2006-09-29, 03:17 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Actually Dale,

I completely disagree with you. An HTPC running mature PVR software (eg. BTV or Sage) will run circles around any TiVo including an S3 ... up to and including OTA HDTV. As soon as a cablecard spec HD Tuner card (ATI or DVICO are probalby very close) arrives that issue is resolved.

I make comments with a great deal of affinity for TiVo. I owned and used an S1 with Simplicity. I have owned and used a ReplayTV with WiRNS. I own and use a cableco HD-PVR (Motorola 6412). I own and use and HTPC (Meedio and BTV on XP). I have answered your question about my having used a TiVo ... the inference being that my TiVo knowledge is limited. Hardly the case. I would be recognized on the TiVo Canada forums by another nick (think SBK), as I would at Planet Replay. You've read and responded to several of my posts at TiVo Canada. I say that only in response to your suggestion that I am somehow unfamiliar with the topic. I am very well versed in it.

I stand by my comments. An S3 TiVo at $899 US makes little sense in the US. In Canada it makes no sense. An S2 used to make sense before TiVo crippled it in later v. 7 releases. An S1 TiVo still makes sense as long as Simplicity continues to work. When it breaks ... it no longer makes sense.

Lastly, as far as TiVo in Canada goes ... and that is the topic of this thread ... once TiVo decided to add Canadian guide service, their treatment of the Canadian consumer has been high handed and contemtuous. I personally am not about to reward that approach with my hard earned money. It was the tipping point that sent me to ReplayTV and made me realize how far behind the true innovators TiVo has fallen.
Good to hear you've used TiVo - sorry to cast aspersions in the prior post but I just don't get how, having used TiVo, you'd come to your conclusions. I still don't. But, such is life.

I haven't explored the Medio in any depth but its my understanding that the all-in (the cost of the PC, the software) it's price is not even close to the S3 TiVo price that you are claiming is overpriced?

You mention that "As soon as a cablecard spec HD Tuner card (ATI or DVICO are probalby very close) arrives that issue is resolved." Exactly when/how is this going to happen in Canada when the MSO's are not willing to support them? And when they do, they'll be equally be usable by the S3.

I want a reliable HD PVR that works with Rogers. There are no other options available to me. If there was I'd explore them. Just this evening my Rogers HD-PVR failed to record both pre-programmed Shark and ER in HD. I set the PVR to record them at 1:00 a.m. - and guess what, they didn't record the 1:00 a.m. episodes either. Why? Who knows? I do know that my S3 WILL record them OTA, admittedly in manual mode, and I won't have to wonder if it will and babysit it?

I'm glad you have something that will theoretically work for you at some point in the future when cablecards are supported in Canada. I know I will too - the S3. In the mean time it will remove about 80% of my reliance on the SFA 8300 HD and its worth every penny of it to me.

...Dale
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Old 2006-09-29, 09:57 AM   #149
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Dale,

I don't want to turn this into a TiVo vs. HTPC thread, but I will try and briefly respond in the context of S3 TiVo's making little sense in Canada.
  1. I built my HTPC for about $1000 all in. No ongoing subscription costs.
  2. BeyondTV provides all the functionality of the TiVo OS with a very usable UI.
  3. The HTPC functions as a media server.
  4. Using Meedio as a front end I get movie listings (including trailers) among the dozens of available plugins.
  5. I can download torrents of TV shows that don't air in Canada and watch them as part of my home theatre.
  6. I can be at the office and forget I wanted to record something and instruct my HTPC to record it from Snapstream's (BeyondTV) website.
  7. BeyondTV is not limited to a single or dual tuner setup. I can be a quad tuner setup mixing SD and HD tuners if I want.
  8. I have S-Video and Audio in on my tuner card. S3 doesn't.
  9. No DRM.
  10. Cablecard is likely never coming to Canada making it a theoretical discussion.

I could go on ... but I said I'd be brief.
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Old 2006-09-29, 02:21 PM   #150
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Default my 2cents worth

My two cents worth:

I like the idea behind TiVo but I just can't justify paying the monthly fee of $12.95US per month. or whatever the exact price is.

I can justify paying for the hardware.

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