Blending sub and fronts

[Scottatah]

Hey Everyone,

I've recently decided that I'm unhappy with how the home theatre sounds and am looking for a little advice/feedback.

I use my home theatre for both music 2.1 and home theatre 5.1. I suspect this is my issue, but I still don't know how to fix it. On the 5.1 home theatre side of things, I'm fairly happy. On the music side, not so much.

My receiver (Onkyo HT-RC270) allows me to choose cross-over settings for my fronts all the way down to 40hz or even full range. The lower I set it, obviously the more range they'll play, but the receiver then seemingly stops sending those frequencies to the sub (Klipsch Sub10 - it may be a sub12, but it doesn't say on the backplate, and i'm not at home at the moment).

If I set the fronts (Athena AS-F2) to full range, they do a decent job, but sometimes I wish I could turn up the bass to give it a little more kick. This isn't an option as the sub seemingly only plays 35hz and below?

If I set the fronts to something like 80hz, the sub is then much more useful and allows me to provide a more bass, but I suppose I struggle to match the two and I don't like the sound as much. Maybe it's placement....I'm not sure. I've tried setting the speakers to every crossover from full to 80hz and haven't really found a setting I like.

While the fronts do a decent job sometimes I want a little more punch and wish I could go in and just turn up the level of the sub. There is the option to turn up the bass (in a bass vs treble like situation), but i'm not really a fan of it either.

I wish my receiver would let me control the sub and the fronts independantly. I suppose in theory, it makes sense that it works how it does, and maybe there might be some cancellation if both played some of the same frequencies, but I'm struggling to get around my situation.

What do I do?

I'm starting to wonder if maybe my Athena's simply aren't cut out for my music needs? Maybe I need something better, or more power? The receiver puts out 100w per channel.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Jake]

Actually I think there is a simple solution. Set your receiver so that low frequencies go to BOTH front and sub. That is what I do. I am almost certain yours can. In the audio setup it will be with the crossover setting.

Also, I don't use the crossover in my sub. I let the receiver do all the filtering. And when listening to music set it to STEREO. Then it will only use the Fronts and sub.

Found it. The description is a bit misleading but this will give your sub bass when the fronts are set to Full Band. Just make sure the sub volume is about mid-level and the crossover is at maximum.

Double Bass
With the Double Bass function, you can boost bass output by feeding bass sounds from the front left, right, and
center channels to the subwoofer.
`On:
Double Bass function on.
`Off(THX):
Double Bass function off.
Note
• This function can be set only if the “Subwoofer” setting is set to
“Yes”, and the “Front” setting is set to “Full Band”.
• If you’re using THX-certified speakers, select “Off(THX)”.

[57]

Just as an FYI, many AVRs turn the sub off if you use the "Stereo" mode and have the front speakers set to large. If you want the sub to work in the Stereo mode, you (often) need to set the fronts to "small", but with a low crossover if your speakers are fairly large.

I have found that there is a large difference in the amount of bass and LFE in various music and programming, so I usually set my sub volume at a "happy medium", but change the volume up/down depending on needs if I'm really in a listening mood. My Denon allows me to do this fairly easily without having to "drill down" in many settings like some AVRs. Some people purchase subs with remotes for this reason, or they reach behind the sub and turn the volume knob up or down a bit.

As stated by Jake, the sub crossover should be set to "max" and the AVR should be handling the crossover when using the sub (RCA/coaxial) connection.

[Scottatah]

Interesting, I just about know my receivers menu inside and out but there are a couple bass settings in a screen I don't visit much and maybe that's where these are. I'll check it when I get home and hope!

Stereo does run in 2.1 but seems to keep the crossover set for the fronts. "direct" or "pure audio" (as I've recently learned) use only the fronts and switch them to a full range.

As it stands adjusting the bass is three menu's down. Not a super quick change but I've lived with it for a couple years now.

[pw5599]

I've fought with the same issue. I'm a 2 channel music listening fan and use good quality larger speakers as my fronts and leave everything else turned off including the sub when listening to music. But even with a great Pioneer VSX-1015 HT receiver it's not ideal for music.

On my basement HT system I overcame the issue by incorporating 2 separate systems. 4 speakers sit at the front, one pair is connected to the HT receiver and the other 2 connected to an old heavy 2 channel power amp. I have a cd player connected thru a switcher that can be played by both systems at once and do that at times when I want excessive volume. But usually for music listening I use the 2 channel system. For vinyl listening it's only the heavy amp running it's 2 speakers.

For watching movies I run the sub output from the HT receiver into my old amp. Then the 2 music system speakers become the subs for HT. I found no matter how good the HT receiver was, it just could not match the quality sound of a good high current 2 channel amp. So buy a smaller set of speakers for your front HT system and hit the used market for a vintage amp and connect your Athenas to it. You will then hear them smiling in joy and showing you what they are capable of. That whole setup shouldnt cost you much and you'll enjoy 2 channel listening alot better.

As an experiment if you can borrow a good stereo amp of 100w/ch or more, connect your Athenas (fine stuff) and I bet you'll be astounding at how they'd sound when fed by that type of amp.

[Jake]

I have the Pioneer 1015 and 1016. The 1016 digital output feeds the 1015 digital input. I rarely need to do that but it is there in case of a musical emergency.

Once I set my speakers properly and the crossover, as already mentioned, the fronts worked very well with the sub for MC movies and stereo music. I have JBL 42' towers that are more than capable of providing bass but the sub really added the little extra I was missing. In stereo mode it works well for me. The auto-speaker setup turns off the sub (except for .1 sources) so you will need to re-enable it.

[Disco Boy]

Its also a good idea to get the audyessy to set the subwoofer gain between -3db to +3db.

Turn down your sub volume and run audyessy again and try to get your sub settings between -3db to +3db and change your fronts to 60 or 80hz. You will find that the sound will blend better with your fronts.

[Scottatah]

Originally Posted by Jake

Actually I think there is a simple solution. Set your receiver so that low frequencies go to BOTH front and sub. That is what I do. I am almost certain yours can. In the audio setup it will be with the crossover setting.

Also, I don't use the crossover in my sub. I let the receiver do all the filtering. And when listening to music set it to STEREO. Then it will only use the Fronts and sub.

Found it. The description is a bit misleading but this will give your sub bass when the fronts are set to Full Band. Just make sure the sub volume is about mid-level and the crossover is at maximum.

Crazy - I went to check the double-bass option and it was enabled...yet, the music definitely has a lot more bass now. Where before I'd be turning the sub up to +2, I've now got it turned down to -8. So...I'm not sure if I changed it and didn't test or what, but it's blending a little more better now. Bass is much more presence and I have proper control over it.

I haven't had a great chance to test it, but so far I'm a lot happier now that I have some capabilities. Thank you for pointing out that setting. Wonder what this will do to the home theatre listening now? Heh - check that out tonight.

[informel]

I had a similar issue as when I was listening to movie I was very happy, but not for music, in my case I had too much base, (I have an Onkyo TR-NX709),my solution was to turn dynamic volume EQ to OFF.

Audissey is great for room correction, but I do not like the dynamic volume EQ (at least for music).

[caper_26]

There are different opinions on this topic since, as always, audio is always a personal preference. I prefer, in my 2.1 system, to have my towers set as LARGE (full range) to be complimented by my sealed sub. Why you ask? The same reason people use more than one sub in HT... to even out room response in the low end. The opposite argument is "but you are straining your amp". I bought a beefier amp for this purpose: to supply power when beef is required . Anyway, my PEQ set the phase wrong. I notice a huge difference when I changed the phase by 180 degrees. Phase plays a much larger role when both speakers and sub are producing bass.
Also, to answer your question, I am constantly changing my sub's 'gain' in my HT setup if I use it for music or games because of the same thing you are complaining about: it just isn't as punchy as movies. i think this can be explained by the LFE channel in movies is pumping out a little more juice than regular music or games. I could be wrong in that explanation, but either way, the reason matters not, only the solution (raising the gain).