Setting up a small cable operation? - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

kitz · 2012-06-12, 06:29 PM

Hi guys, first post.

Say I was in an area with ten homes and I was the only one able to receive clear OTA signals. What would be involved in setting up a small cable operation?

Are there legal issues regarding snagging OTA channels? I'm not so sure about what happened with that CRTC decision - would I owe the OTA channels a percentage of revenue?

How large would I have to get to suddenly have to contribute to the canadian tevelision fund? Would I have to have my own commuinity access channel immediately or is there a point where it's necessary?

And finally, what would be the best system to bring to people's doors? Last I heard, fibre was way too expensive to bring from door to door, so are we talking about laying coax everywhere? What's the cable of the future? CAT6? Powered coax?

There's going to be a lot of "why bother doing this" responses, but let's just say it's a thought experiment.

---
As I do research, I'll update this post with my findings.
---

Legal Issues

1. CRTC requires a BDU broadcast licence to share an antenna from property to property
2. Sample BDU application (CRTC)
3. Apparently, one cannot take a London television station and broadcast it in Ottawa without their permission.
4. Still cannot find how much a BDU licence fee is.
5. Must contribute to the LPIF - 1.5% of gross revenues.
6. Apparently there's fees payable to SOCAN. Why? IDK (yet)

Technical Issues

1. Likely looking at a RF distribution network (coax) with field amplification (Jase88)

---
Miscellaneous

Found a really good overview of the industry, unfortunately it focuses on American Distribution systems. "TRENDS IN MULTICHANNEL TV AND ONLINE VIDEO IN THE UNITED STATES"

hugh · 2012-06-12, 06:40 PM

Try searching as this question has come up before. In addition, you should search the CRTC website as it would likely have a lot of the rules and regulations posted there.

kitz · 2012-06-12, 06:59 PM

sure, hugh, I can do that. actually I already tried searching but maybe wasn't thorough enough.

As for the CRTC website I can do that as well, but with my layman comprehension it might take quite a while and I may not understand it fully. I was hoping someone more familiar with the regs would have a take on it.

Jase88 · 2012-06-12, 07:10 PM

I couldn't find the previous thread either...

Briefly, to keep things legal, you'd need to apply for a license to become a Broadcast Distribution Undertaking (BDU) with the CRTC. If you did a search with that term at the CRTC website, you'll likely get more informative hits.

Depending on how close these 10 homes are, you're most likely going to create an RF distribution network (coax) with field amplification. A fibre network isn't necessarily cost prohibitive, but an RF network (coax) with field amplifcation is likely the best bet.

kitz · 2012-06-12, 07:32 PM

Thanks, Jase, I've been searching/reading for a bit now and am finding out about the BDU. This bothers me because it seems like it's just protectionism... Then again on a larger scale, it might be appropriate.

Do you know how much firbe is nowadays? I saw something from 2000 era stating that it was cost-prohibitive.

Dr.Dave · 2012-06-12, 08:12 PM

I remember reading this thread a few years ago about neighbours sharing an antenna. You might find something useful.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...997#post909997

Fibre is much less expensive than it was in 2000. MTS in Manitoba said that installing fibre to the home is now roughly comparable in cost to installing copper telephone wire. I suspect the easiest distribution network for a small system would probably be coax similar to your local cable company.

kitz · 2012-06-12, 08:19 PM

Heh, Thanks Dave, I just finished reading that thread.

I gotta admit that I'm a little blown away at just how much regulation there is for this... I'm starting to think that buying the hardware or picking up a signal isn't the real barrier here....

Jase88 · 2012-06-12, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitz

Do you know how much firbe is nowadays? I saw something from 2000 era stating that it was cost-prohibitive.

I can't comment specifically on costs--it obviously depends on the components and cabling used in the install. What can get expensive is the equipment used to test and diagnose faults on fibre lines.

RF is definitely easier to maintain. If someone accidentally cuts a coax, the fix is quick and easy. Not so much with fibre.

peano · 2012-06-12, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitz

I'm starting to think that buying the hardware or picking up a signal isn't the real barrier here....

The barrier is protected BDU's. That is why they get away with gouging their customers.

I feed three houses with my OTA setup. If somebody wants to knock on my door and take me to court, I would love the challenge.

mrvanwinkles · 2012-06-13, 08:48 AM

Not to discourage or dissuade you ...

but my guess is that the regulations, paperwork, bureaucracy, fees, applications, etc. to do this is so much trouble, for a smaller undertaking, that it may not be worth the effort.

Then, once you're official, in the open, and operating, the large established companies, from whom you may be offering alternative services, and from whom you may be taking away business, viewership, and customers - may start to take notice. Then they will start to "exercise" the rules - in order to try and get you to stop.

They may try to make your life difficult in such an undertaking.

They may also want to try and make a public example of your enterprise, in order to strongly discourage anyone else from trying it.

[ This is the way "Business" operates my friend ... and the way regulations operate too ... ]

You might have trouble/difficulties getting the O.K. to start running your cabling and infrastructure/facilities on existing poles, or rights-of-way to get to the nearby properties. Or getting the O.K. to climb those poles, or dig up those rights-of-way to place and maintain your cabling and infrastructure.

I don't want to encourage you to do anything illegal ... but ...

But you might have better luck just quietly and discreetly and secretly feeding - say - your two adjacent neighbours. And you would be responsible for that part. Then your two adjacent neighbours could do what they want - for example feed their two adjacent neighbours - and they would be responsible for that part.

And they'll feed two friends, and they'll feed to friends - and so on and so on - until you reach the technical limit of the thing - and that would probably be big enough - or as big as you would like it to get at that point.

But this will be a bit of a headache to maintain. Technically and socially.

But I think that might work - up to a certain small size.

Until you are found out - and then you'll get the warning, and the order to shut it all down.

What about an OTA - Co-Op or Club?
Just help each other out with OTA setups ?

- totally legal.

Here's something to consider:

What if you start to form a neighbourhood "OTA - Over the air - co-operative" and start to help each other out with each other's antenna setups?

It could be just information, advice, or pointing your neighbours to the OTA part of the Digital Forum website.

Demonstrating your setup, and showing what you recieve to your neighbours. That will peak their interest.

And yes, you could even help each other out with actual physical setups.

Or advise each other on good locally available antennas / equipment to use.
Or local installers who could help out.
Or do some bulk material / equipment, cabling, tool purchases for OTA setups and antenna builds.

Share some specialized tools, or purchase in larger quantities and divide up certain materials.

Even just build a couple smaller and simpler antennas, and GIVE them to a couple neighbours to experiment with.

And have a few larger, better, more elaborate home built antennas around to show and try.

I think you get the idea.

What do you think ? (in any case - I just find it's a neat hobby)

kitz · 2012-06-13, 01:34 PM

I really like the idea of having a "networked" cable TV solution, where if the network reached a certain size then you could have individual residences with a better signal contributing better quality channels.

But honestly, I am getting a little discouraged here. It looks like if you drop a line across properties and send a signal through it you're screwed.

I'm not saying this isn't something to take up... I would like to see cable co-operatives pop up where they were all non-profit and worked together to deliver entertainment and communications at cost.

But as for a single person stepping up and saying "up yours, I'm not taking it any more" it's looking to be quite the fight.

cm3020prob · 2012-06-13, 04:31 PM

Just my thoughts.

Back in the late 60's and early 70's, there was such thing as "community antenna": everyone sharing a common antenna. If distant CBC station is transmitting on RF21, residents will tune to RF21 on their ATSC tuner to get CBC. For 10 homes, it shouldn't be a problem, but becomes a problem if it expands. It's normal that residents will pay their share of setup fees and distribution expenses (like location fees for wires using telephone poles), but you're not making any profit out of it.

On the other hand, if you're receiving signals, converting them and distributing them in other forms or frequency (analog or QAM), you are now offering a new service, and as you pointed out, you'll probably be forced to distribute CPAC, APTN, House of Commons and the Weather Network as well, charging your clients at least 10$ per month, and, and...

The other solution, more setup expensive, is operating a community OTA low-power re-transmitter, where you can, for example, receive CBC-CTV-Global and retransmit them in SD or HD using your transmitter(s). All residents will need an antenna but reception will be much easier. As mentionned, there's a thread for that in the OTA section.

travisc · 2012-06-17, 09:54 PM

You wouldn't pay LPIF nor would you pay a BDU license fee. Small systems are typically exempted from these fees.

SOCAN takes a fee to compensate rights holders for music played on TV. It's basically a shakedown, but that's Canada for you.

stampeder · 2012-06-18, 02:28 AM

Whether the feed is from CATV or OTA, you are talking about an MATV solution and you are thus walking into a minefield because of regulatory problems, local bylaws, and also the reality that you would really need to have that sort of system professionally engineered (we're talking a turn-key solution by a contractor). This is not a project conquered successfully by a typical layman.

It may be possible to do it yourself but unless you are a grizzled veteran of these things it can go sideways on you very fast. Regarding the regulatory side, there are Canadians who are working to keep this option available in certain locales and situations.

HDTV101 · 2012-06-18, 05:43 AM

What I'd do for starters is to setup a private WiFi network with your neighbors. On your home you setup a high power outdoor access point and an omni-directional antenna.

Your neighbors, that are close enough can just use indoor antennas,,, the others can use a simple outdoor panel WiFi antenna.

In your home you'd setup Singboxes ... one for each user.. so say 10 of them. Each one would be set to it's own private IP number.

Sling #1 192.168.200.10
Sling #2 192.168.200.20
Sling #3 192.168.200.30
Etc, etc

Each receiving neighbor sets his receiving client device to his assigned private IP number. Since it's a private WiFi LAN network there will be no bandwidth costs or caps!

You'd connect all the Slings together using a simple network switch. Since IP's are all assigned as static you won't need a router.

The HD Slings have ATSC antenna in and out connectors so you can cascade many of them together.

http://ca.slingbox.com/go/slingbox-prohd-connections

2012-06-12, 07:10 PM	#4
Jase88 Moderator Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Kitchener, ON Posts: 4,109	I couldn't find the previous thread either... Briefly, to keep things legal, you'd need to apply for a license to become a Broadcast Distribution Undertaking (BDU) with the CRTC. If you did a search with that term at the CRTC website, you'll likely get more informative hits. Depending on how close these 10 homes are, you're most likely going to create an RF distribution network (coax) with field amplification. A fibre network isn't necessarily cost prohibitive, but an RF network (coax) with field amplifcation is likely the best bet. __________________ DMX 68' tower, HyGain HAM 5 rotator, Antennas Direct 91-XG & C5, Channel Master 7777 preamp, Siemens surge protection

2012-06-13, 08:48 AM	#10
mrvanwinkles Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Eastern Ontario (Ottawa/Kingston) Posts: 1,380	What about just an OTA neighbourhood Co-Operative or Club? Not to discourage or dissuade you ... but my guess is that the regulations, paperwork, bureaucracy, fees, applications, etc. to do this is so much trouble, for a smaller undertaking, that it may not be worth the effort. Then, once you're official, in the open, and operating, the large established companies, from whom you may be offering alternative services, and from whom you may be taking away business, viewership, and customers - may start to take notice. Then they will start to "exercise" the rules - in order to try and get you to stop. They may try to make your life difficult in such an undertaking. They may also want to try and make a public example of your enterprise, in order to strongly discourage anyone else from trying it. [ This is the way "Business" operates my friend ... and the way regulations operate too ... ] You might have trouble/difficulties getting the O.K. to start running your cabling and infrastructure/facilities on existing poles, or rights-of-way to get to the nearby properties. Or getting the O.K. to climb those poles, or dig up those rights-of-way to place and maintain your cabling and infrastructure. I don't want to encourage you to do anything illegal ... but ... But you might have better luck just quietly and discreetly and secretly feeding - say - your two adjacent neighbours. And you would be responsible for that part. Then your two adjacent neighbours could do what they want - for example feed their two adjacent neighbours - and they would be responsible for that part. And they'll feed two friends, and they'll feed to friends - and so on and so on - until you reach the technical limit of the thing - and that would probably be big enough - or as big as you would like it to get at that point. But this will be a bit of a headache to maintain. Technically and socially. But I think that might work - up to a certain small size. Until you are found out - and then you'll get the warning, and the order to shut it all down. What about an OTA - Co-Op or Club? Just help each other out with OTA setups ? - totally legal. Here's something to consider: What if you start to form a neighbourhood "OTA - Over the air - co-operative" and start to help each other out with each other's antenna setups? It could be just information, advice, or pointing your neighbours to the OTA part of the Digital Forum website. Demonstrating your setup, and showing what you recieve to your neighbours. That will peak their interest. And yes, you could even help each other out with actual physical setups. Or advise each other on good locally available antennas / equipment to use. Or local installers who could help out. Or do some bulk material / equipment, cabling, tool purchases for OTA setups and antenna builds. Share some specialized tools, or purchase in larger quantities and divide up certain materials. Even just build a couple smaller and simpler antennas, and GIVE them to a couple neighbours to experiment with. And have a few larger, better, more elaborate home built antennas around to show and try. I think you get the idea. What do you think ? (in any case - I just find it's a neat hobby)

2012-06-13, 04:31 PM	#12
cm3020prob Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Montreal, QC Posts: 277	Just my thoughts. Back in the late 60's and early 70's, there was such thing as "community antenna": everyone sharing a common antenna. If distant CBC station is transmitting on RF21, residents will tune to RF21 on their ATSC tuner to get CBC. For 10 homes, it shouldn't be a problem, but becomes a problem if it expands. It's normal that residents will pay their share of setup fees and distribution expenses (like location fees for wires using telephone poles), but you're not making any profit out of it. On the other hand, if you're receiving signals, converting them and distributing them in other forms or frequency (analog or QAM), you are now offering a new service, and as you pointed out, you'll probably be forced to distribute CPAC, APTN, House of Commons and the Weather Network as well, charging your clients at least 10$ per month, and, and... The other solution, more setup expensive, is operating a community OTA low-power re-transmitter, where you can, for example, receive CBC-CTV-Global and retransmit them in SD or HD using your transmitter(s). All residents will need an antenna but reception will be much easier. As mentionned, there's a thread for that in the OTA section. __________________ CM-3020 with CM-7777

2012-06-18, 02:28 AM	#14
stampeder OTA Forum Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: North Delta, BC (96Av x 116St) Posts: 23,338	Whether the feed is from CATV or OTA, you are talking about an MATV solution and you are thus walking into a minefield because of regulatory problems, local bylaws, and also the reality that you would really need to have that sort of system professionally engineered (we're talking a turn-key solution by a contractor). This is not a project conquered successfully by a typical layman. It may be possible to do it yourself but unless you are a grizzled veteran of these things it can go sideways on you very fast. Regarding the regulatory side, there are Canadians who are working to keep this option available in certain locales and situations. __________________ New To OTA? OTA FAQ & Knowledge Base OTA Antenna Chart 8.2

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2012-06-12, 06:29 PM	#1
kitz Rookie Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 5	Setting up a small cable operation? Hi guys, first post. Say I was in an area with ten homes and I was the only one able to receive clear OTA signals. What would be involved in setting up a small cable operation? Are there legal issues regarding snagging OTA channels? I'm not so sure about what happened with that CRTC decision - would I owe the OTA channels a percentage of revenue? How large would I have to get to suddenly have to contribute to the canadian tevelision fund? Would I have to have my own commuinity access channel immediately or is there a point where it's necessary? And finally, what would be the best system to bring to people's doors? Last I heard, fibre was way too expensive to bring from door to door, so are we talking about laying coax everywhere? What's the cable of the future? CAT6? Powered coax? There's going to be a lot of "why bother doing this" responses, but let's just say it's a thought experiment. --- As I do research, I'll update this post with my findings. --- Legal Issues 1. CRTC requires a BDU broadcast licence to share an antenna from property to property 2. Sample BDU application (CRTC) 3. Apparently, one cannot take a London television station and broadcast it in Ottawa without their permission. 4. Still cannot find how much a BDU licence fee is. 5. Must contribute to the LPIF - 1.5% of gross revenues. 6. Apparently there's fees payable to SOCAN. Why? IDK (yet) Technical Issues 1. Likely looking at a RF distribution network (coax) with field amplification (Jase88) --- Miscellaneous Found a really good overview of the industry, unfortunately it focuses on American Distribution systems. "TRENDS IN MULTICHANNEL TV AND ONLINE VIDEO IN THE UNITED STATES" Last edited by kitz; 2012-06-12 at 08:42 PM. Reason: additional info

2012-06-12, 06:40 PM	#2
hugh Member #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 47,492	Try searching as this question has come up before. In addition, you should search the CRTC website as it would likely have a lot of the rules and regulations posted there. __________________ As of January 2012, I am no longer the owner of the Digital Home website. If you have questions about the operation of the site, please contact VSAdmin. For personal inquiries contact me at the Hugh Thompson website.

2012-06-12, 06:59 PM	#3
kitz Rookie Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 5	sure, hugh, I can do that. actually I already tried searching but maybe wasn't thorough enough. As for the CRTC website I can do that as well, but with my layman comprehension it might take quite a while and I may not understand it fully. I was hoping someone more familiar with the regs would have a take on it.

2012-06-12, 07:32 PM	#5
kitz Rookie Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 5	Thanks, Jase, I've been searching/reading for a bit now and am finding out about the BDU. This bothers me because it seems like it's just protectionism... Then again on a larger scale, it might be appropriate. Do you know how much firbe is nowadays? I saw something from 2000 era stating that it was cost-prohibitive.

2012-06-12, 08:12 PM	#6
Dr.Dave Moderator Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Winnipeg Posts: 4,714	I remember reading this thread a few years ago about neighbours sharing an antenna. You might find something useful. http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...997#post909997 Fibre is much less expensive than it was in 2000. MTS in Manitoba said that installing fibre to the home is now roughly comparable in cost to installing copper telephone wire. I suspect the easiest distribution network for a small system would probably be coax similar to your local cable company.

2012-06-12, 08:19 PM	#7
kitz Rookie Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 5	Heh, Thanks Dave, I just finished reading that thread. I gotta admit that I'm a little blown away at just how much regulation there is for this... I'm starting to think that buying the hardware or picking up a signal isn't the real barrier here....

2012-06-13, 01:34 PM	#11
kitz Rookie Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 5	I really like the idea of having a "networked" cable TV solution, where if the network reached a certain size then you could have individual residences with a better signal contributing better quality channels. But honestly, I am getting a little discouraged here. It looks like if you drop a line across properties and send a signal through it you're screwed. I'm not saying this isn't something to take up... I would like to see cable co-operatives pop up where they were all non-profit and worked together to deliver entertainment and communications at cost. But as for a single person stepping up and saying "up yours, I'm not taking it any more" it's looking to be quite the fight.

2012-06-17, 09:54 PM	#13
travisc Veteran Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Uxbridge, ON Posts: 3,588	You wouldn't pay LPIF nor would you pay a BDU license fee. Small systems are typically exempted from these fees. SOCAN takes a fee to compensate rights holders for music played on TV. It's basically a shakedown, but that's Canada for you.

2012-06-18, 05:43 AM	#15
HDTV101 Veteran Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,000	What I'd do for starters is to setup a private WiFi network with your neighbors. On your home you setup a high power outdoor access point and an omni-directional antenna. Your neighbors, that are close enough can just use indoor antennas,,, the others can use a simple outdoor panel WiFi antenna. In your home you'd setup Singboxes ... one for each user.. so say 10 of them. Each one would be set to it's own private IP number. Sling #1 192.168.200.10 Sling #2 192.168.200.20 Sling #3 192.168.200.30 Etc, etc Each receiving neighbor sets his receiving client device to his assigned private IP number. Since it's a private WiFi LAN network there will be no bandwidth costs or caps! You'd connect all the Slings together using a simple network switch. Since IP's are all assigned as static you won't need a router. The HD Slings have ATSC antenna in and out connectors so you can cascade many of them together. http://ca.slingbox.com/go/slingbox-prohd-connections