Some SD programming in letterbox - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

imaddicted2u · 2011-09-16, 06:26 PM

Just wonder why when I view some channels in SD the program displays in letterbox format but when I switch to the HD version the screen fills normally. Is this something my cable provider is doing to the signal? When the cable provider inserts a commercial on the channel, it is not displayed in letterbox format. The guide displays full screen whether on SD or HD programming. Many other SD channels display in letterbox while many others don't. My cable provider says it is my tv's but I find this hard to believe because if it was a tv setting all SD programming would be in letterbox not just some of the programming, wouldn't it? Any ideas?

Michael TLV · 2011-09-16, 08:22 PM

Greetings

What is the cable box set to output the signal as? All 1080i ...? OR does the SD come out in 480i or p formats?

Regards

imaddicted2u · 2011-09-16, 08:31 PM

Motorla DCX-3400-M
Set to output 1080i via service menu.
CNN for instance, SD version is letterbox, guide displays normally, provider inserted commercial plays normally.
CNN HD version plays normally, guide plays normally.
Some SD channels play normally some don't.
Multiple TV's have the same issue.
That's why I think it is an issue that the provider needs to fix.

snorlax · 2011-09-16, 10:13 PM

I've noticed this on several channels. The SD version changes to letterboxed when the program is 16X9 and is normal 4X3 (with side bars)when the program is SD. The HD channel is full screen when the program is 16X9 and 4X3 (with side bars) when the program is SD. The broadcaster (not the cable or satellite provider) is doing this to ensure none of the image is lost to the SD viewer by side cutting the 16X9 feed. Some broadcasters do it for every 16X9 program while others only do it when the program is not 4X3 safe. Enjoy!

brown · 2011-09-17, 09:53 AM

Some? I'd say almost half of the SD programming is letterboxed. Drives me nuts, what's the point?

Snorlax, if I switch the TV back to 4:3, the feed is still letterboxed. Nothing is lost nor gained.

Paolo · 2011-09-17, 10:17 AM

brown thats exactly why they are doing it, for the 4:3 tv sets still out there.

SD material in canada is still for the most part archived in 4:3 format, so regardless if you have a 16:9 tv it is not doing anything better.

My father is used to watching tv shows with a pillar box (black border) around the entire picture making the viewable area much smaller, even our family over in europe think our tv system is whack when they see how our programs look. they cant figure it out.

57 · 2011-09-17, 11:32 AM

Perfectly normal for SD letterbox material. Here's the FAQ on Black Bars.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=76089

You can manually zoom the picture to fill the screen on some TVs, however, the picture quality is usually quite poor if you do this and you must remember to unzoom for watching other material.

Useful Post: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=57741

brown · 2011-09-18, 09:55 AM

This makes no sense. If the original signal is 4:3, then we should not be seeing letterboxing. If the original signal is 16:9, then yes we should on an SD feed. But there are many channels that only recently went HD (say food network or hgtv) and they've always broadcast letterbox in SD.

This is like putting tape players into cars instead of an input jack, even though no 4:3 tv have been available for sale for quite a while now. Even my retired parents have a widescreen.

It's time to accommodate the majority on widescreen and leave the old format behind.

Paolo · 2011-09-18, 11:41 AM

Makes perfect senes to me. Whats on the signal and what is encoded in the signal is different things. a 4:3 signal CAN contain a 16x9 image, thus the black bars become part of the encoded image. it does not become a 16x9 signal.

snorlax · 2011-09-18, 08:47 PM

The cheapest way to convert a TV station to HD and maintain an SD output is to produce and broadcast in HD and simply downconvert that output to SD. This is instead of maintaining the SD infrastructure. The SD output can be switched from 4X3 side cut to 4X3 letterboxed depending on whether the material is 16X9 that is not 4X3 safe or 16x9 that is 4X3 safe or actually 4X3 but this requires a heads up approach to the matter. Each program must be flagged as to aspect type and the downconverter needs to be programmed to switch as required. This can be difficult because of the random nature of the commercials which can also fall into these three catagories and require appropriate treatment. The easy fix is to letterbox everything going from HD to SD. No format switching is required and your advertiser won't complain that his phone number is cut off on SD sets. That's the reason many broadcasters are letterboxed on their SD output.

JamesK · 2011-09-20, 05:49 AM

Quote:

But there are many channels that only recently went HD

HD has been around for about 12 years and many, lately most, TV shows produced in that time have been made in 16:9 format, so there's no 4:3 version available. To show it in 4:3 you either letterbox or chop the sides.

brown · 2011-09-22, 01:54 PM

If you are a tv station and produce your own shows exclusivly for your network and only broadcast in sd, why would you film it in hd?

classicsat · 2011-09-23, 09:40 AM

You said "network". In that context, the item can be distributed to other stations on the network, or otherswise sold, including to HD stations.

For non-network use, it could be archived and used as part of an HD broadcast later, when the station does go HD, plus it gives the staff a chance to get used to HD, and make the investment in HD production first, then be ready for HD broadcast immediately, rather than most stations which stayed locally SD for some time when they became digital/HD, getting their HD from the network only.

Paolo · 2011-09-23, 10:02 AM

I know of a few stations that are already broadcasting in HD but they only have a licence for SD so they still distribute an SD signal to the cable companies, even though their production is hd-ready.

Khorn · 2011-09-24, 01:38 PM

Letterboxing is bad enough but "windowboxing" drives me nuts.

2011-09-16, 06:26 PM	#1
imaddicted2u Rookie Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 4	Some SD programming in letterbox Just wonder why when I view some channels in SD the program displays in letterbox format but when I switch to the HD version the screen fills normally. Is this something my cable provider is doing to the signal? When the cable provider inserts a commercial on the channel, it is not displayed in letterbox format. The guide displays full screen whether on SD or HD programming. Many other SD channels display in letterbox while many others don't. My cable provider says it is my tv's but I find this hard to believe because if it was a tv setting all SD programming would be in letterbox not just some of the programming, wouldn't it? Any ideas?

2011-09-16, 08:22 PM	#2
Michael TLV Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Calgary, Alberta Posts: 1,101	Greetings What is the cable box set to output the signal as? All 1080i ...? OR does the SD come out in 480i or p formats? Regards __________________ Michael @ TLVExperience ISF/THX Video Systems Instructor

2011-09-16, 10:13 PM	#4
snorlax Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Thornhill, Ontario Posts: 391	I've noticed this on several channels. The SD version changes to letterboxed when the program is 16X9 and is normal 4X3 (with side bars)when the program is SD. The HD channel is full screen when the program is 16X9 and 4X3 (with side bars) when the program is SD. The broadcaster (not the cable or satellite provider) is doing this to ensure none of the image is lost to the SD viewer by side cutting the 16X9 feed. Some broadcasters do it for every 16X9 program while others only do it when the program is not 4X3 safe. Enjoy! __________________ Rogers Employee. My posts should not be considered as coming from an authorized corporate source.

2011-09-17, 11:32 AM	#7
57 Moderator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Toronto, Rogers, 8300HD, eHDD, Panasonic TCP65S1, Denon AVR4310Ci; 8300HD, eHDD & Sony KDL40W3000 Posts: 50,294	Perfectly normal for SD letterbox material. Here's the FAQ on Black Bars. http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=76089 You can manually zoom the picture to fill the screen on some TVs, however, the picture quality is usually quite poor if you do this and you must remember to unzoom for watching other material. Useful Post: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=57741 __________________ 57's Home Theatre (Latest equipment & photos) 57's Optimization Services (Home Theatre Optimization)

2011-09-18, 08:47 PM	#10
snorlax Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Thornhill, Ontario Posts: 391	The cheapest way to convert a TV station to HD and maintain an SD output is to produce and broadcast in HD and simply downconvert that output to SD. This is instead of maintaining the SD infrastructure. The SD output can be switched from 4X3 side cut to 4X3 letterboxed depending on whether the material is 16X9 that is not 4X3 safe or 16x9 that is 4X3 safe or actually 4X3 but this requires a heads up approach to the matter. Each program must be flagged as to aspect type and the downconverter needs to be programmed to switch as required. This can be difficult because of the random nature of the commercials which can also fall into these three catagories and require appropriate treatment. The easy fix is to letterbox everything going from HD to SD. No format switching is required and your advertiser won't complain that his phone number is cut off on SD sets. That's the reason many broadcasters are letterboxed on their SD output. __________________ Rogers Employee. My posts should not be considered as coming from an authorized corporate source.

2011-09-16, 08:31 PM	#3
imaddicted2u Rookie Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 4	Motorla DCX-3400-M Set to output 1080i via service menu. CNN for instance, SD version is letterbox, guide displays normally, provider inserted commercial plays normally. CNN HD version plays normally, guide plays normally. Some SD channels play normally some don't. Multiple TV's have the same issue. That's why I think it is an issue that the provider needs to fix.

2011-09-17, 09:53 AM	#5
brown Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Montreal Posts: 355	Some? I'd say almost half of the SD programming is letterboxed. Drives me nuts, what's the point? Snorlax, if I switch the TV back to 4:3, the feed is still letterboxed. Nothing is lost nor gained.

2011-09-17, 10:17 AM	#6
Paolo Veteran Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Regional Municipality of Durham Posts: 2,695	brown thats exactly why they are doing it, for the 4:3 tv sets still out there. SD material in canada is still for the most part archived in 4:3 format, so regardless if you have a 16:9 tv it is not doing anything better. My father is used to watching tv shows with a pillar box (black border) around the entire picture making the viewable area much smaller, even our family over in europe think our tv system is whack when they see how our programs look. they cant figure it out.

2011-09-18, 09:55 AM	#8
brown Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Montreal Posts: 355	This makes no sense. If the original signal is 4:3, then we should not be seeing letterboxing. If the original signal is 16:9, then yes we should on an SD feed. But there are many channels that only recently went HD (say food network or hgtv) and they've always broadcast letterbox in SD. This is like putting tape players into cars instead of an input jack, even though no 4:3 tv have been available for sale for quite a while now. Even my retired parents have a widescreen. It's time to accommodate the majority on widescreen and leave the old format behind.

2011-09-18, 11:41 AM	#9
Paolo Veteran Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Regional Municipality of Durham Posts: 2,695	Makes perfect senes to me. Whats on the signal and what is encoded in the signal is different things. a 4:3 signal CAN contain a 16x9 image, thus the black bars become part of the encoded image. it does not become a 16x9 signal.

2011-09-22, 01:54 PM	#12
brown Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Montreal Posts: 355	If you are a tv station and produce your own shows exclusivly for your network and only broadcast in sd, why would you film it in hd?

2011-09-23, 09:40 AM	#13
classicsat Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kincardine ON. Posts: 3,942	You said "network". In that context, the item can be distributed to other stations on the network, or otherswise sold, including to HD stations. For non-network use, it could be archived and used as part of an HD broadcast later, when the station does go HD, plus it gives the staff a chance to get used to HD, and make the investment in HD production first, then be ready for HD broadcast immediately, rather than most stations which stayed locally SD for some time when they became digital/HD, getting their HD from the network only.

2011-09-23, 10:02 AM	#14
Paolo Veteran Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Regional Municipality of Durham Posts: 2,695	I know of a few stations that are already broadcasting in HD but they only have a licence for SD so they still distribute an SD signal to the cable companies, even though their production is hd-ready.

2011-09-24, 01:38 PM	#15
Khorn Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: North York (West Lansing), Toronto Posts: 1,082	Letterboxing is bad enough but "windowboxing" drives me nuts.

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